We’ve all had someone try to guilt trip us. It’s the one trip no one wants to take! In spite of that, there are times we pick up the bags packed for that trip. The thing is, a guilt trip usually isn’t about you at all; it’s about the person trying to manipulate you. Once you know it’s not about you, you realize those aren’t your bags to carry. Don’t we all have enough emotional baggage already?
Full transcript and show notes here: https://bit.ly/dospod141
Voicemail & text: (850) 270-3308
Stephanie Kostopoulos : https://www.stephaniekostopoulos.com/
Beth Demme: http://bethdemme.com/
We’ve all had someone try to guilt trip us. It’s the one trip no one wants to take! In spite of that, there are times we pick up the bags packed for that trip. The thing is, a guilt trip usually isn’t about you at all; it’s about the person trying to manipulate you. Once you know it’s not about you, you realize those aren’t your bags to carry. Don’t we all have enough emotional baggage already?
Full transcript and show notes here: https://bit.ly/dospod141
Voicemail & text: (850) 270-3308
Stephanie Kostopoulos : https://www.stephaniekostopoulos.com/
Beth Demme: http://bethdemme.com/
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:05):
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other.
Beth Demme (00:08):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear being discussed in other places.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:13):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Steph.
Beth Demme (00:17):
And I'm Beth. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled, Those Aren't Your Bags to Carry.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:24):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with questions for reflection, where we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation and your own life. What does this mean, Beth? What do you mean carry? You're not carrying my bags? What?
Beth Demme (00:34):
I'm not going to carry your bags because, guess what? My baggage is enough. My baggage is heavy enough. Full enough. And my arms are full with my own baggage. So I'm going to let you carry your own.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:48):
So, where are we going? Are we going to New York? Are we flying somewhere? What's happening?
Beth Demme (00:51):
This is strictly a metaphor for emotional baggage.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:57):
Okay. Okay.
Beth Demme (00:58):
Right. I'm following. Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:59):
So we're talking more the metaphor, not the actual reality. But, it sounds like in reality, you still wouldn't carry my bags.
Beth Demme (01:05):
True.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:06):
Okay.
Beth Demme (01:06):
In reality, I would still let you carry your own bags. Yes. Because you are a strong, capable, beautiful woman, and you got this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:14):
And, we both have our own bags. How could we even carry our own?
Beth Demme (01:17):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:17):
Carry each others.
Beth Demme (01:18):
Somebody else's bags.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:19):
Yeah. No.
Beth Demme (01:19):
Our hands are full with our own stuff.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:21):
You go to the airport, you know, we all got our whole life with us on the airplane.
Beth Demme (01:25):
It's true. So, I don't know if I told you this yet. But, Stephen and I are going to do a big trip in September and October. We're going to go for two weeks and travel around Scotland.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:35):
Ooh.
Beth Demme (01:36):
But, because of the ways that we're traveling, we actually have to be really intentional about our bags.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:42):
Mm-hmm.
Beth Demme (01:42):
And so, I actually have been looking at actual baggage lately. I mean, our suitcases are all set. But, I keep wanting to get a bigger backpack for a carry-on, so I can take more stuff with me. And I'm like, "But then, I have to carry it."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:57):
Wait. On your back.
Beth Demme (01:59):
I actually don't want to get a bigger backpack.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:01):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (02:01):
So, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:02):
It's give and take. Yeah.
Beth Demme (02:03):
So although, we mean this in a metaphorical way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:04):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (02:05):
It is also an actual part of my thinking these days.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:08):
Yeah. Is, you can't carry someone's bags when you have your own.
Beth Demme (02:10):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:10):
Yeah. Okay.
Beth Demme (02:12):
And, you want to be mindful of how much you're carrying to protect yourself.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:17):
Right. Right.
Beth Demme (02:18):
The metaphors, boom, boom, boom. Oh my gosh.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:21):
You throw that back out, it's going to be bad.
Beth Demme (02:23):
What brought this up is, recently I had an interaction with someone, where they tried to guilt trip me. And, there is a time in my life where it would've worked very effectively. And, for whatever reason, in that moment, I had clarity. And I was like, "Whoa, this is not about me." I don't need to feel guilty, because this is not about me. The thing that they're saying, that they're trying to make me feel guilty about, that's all their issues. And, I don't know, it was this moment of clarity, and self-awareness, and freedom, and joy to realize that actually doesn't impact me because that's not my bag to carry.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:02):
I feel like this happens to me also. And this is something we've talked about it before, that we went through a recovery program together. And so, a big realization I had during that program was, that it's not my job to fix other people.
Beth Demme (03:17):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:17):
I can listen to people, I can sit with them, I can be there for them, but it's not my job to tell them what to do. It's not my job to hold their hand, and take them to counseling, and sit there, and make sure they do it. They have to want those things. They have to do those things. And, I could suggest counseling, but if they don't do it, it doesn't need to derail my life. That is their choice, whether they do it or not. And if they don't take care of their stuff, when they try to put their stuff on me, I'm able to be like, "No." I mean, I don't say it out loud. But I can in my head say, "That's your stuff. And, it doesn't need to impact my life. And I don't need to take the bait." Also, I feel like-
Beth Demme (04:01):
Oh, that's a good point.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:02):
... I feel like there's times when, I feel like, we should act out of a scene. Okay, maybe you want to go to dinner. You want me to go to dinner with you?
Beth Demme (04:12):
Okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:13):
We're getting a whole gang together.
Beth Demme (04:16):
Obviously, it's brunch. But okay, go ahead. Keep going.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:17):
It's brunch, obviously, yes. And you invite me. And then, we'll see what happens.
Beth Demme (04:23):
Steph, I've gotten everybody together, and we're going to get together for brunch tomorrow. You'll be there, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:28):
What time?
Beth Demme (04:29):
11:00.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:31):
Oh, actually, I don't know. I'm really tired. This week's been really hard.
Beth Demme (04:37):
Steph, I planned this because I wanted you to see everybody and everybody wants to see you. It's an hour. You can't just take an hour?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:44):
I've just had a really busy week.
Beth Demme (04:47):
Oh, you're too busy for me. And, scene.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:50):
That was very good. And, there was a moment where I did feel bad that I had to say no. But, I stuck with my no.
Beth Demme (04:59):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:59):
Because, I knew that was the healthy healthiest thing, because I had had a hard week. And, as an introvert, you were saying you got the group together, that sounded like more than one person. And that seemed too overwhelming for me to put my introvert self up to the max.
Beth Demme (05:18):
And they all wanted to see you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:20):
And they all wanted to see me.
Beth Demme (05:21):
They wanted to see you, and talk to you, and they wanted you to talk to them, and there were going to be so many words.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:26):
I know this is just a role play, but the anxiety already. Yes, I don't want to go.
Beth Demme (05:33):
Okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:34):
And I don't even know who they are. Who are they? Do they even know me? Do they know me? And I know a handful of your friends now, so I'm like, "Is it all of them?" All your friends are extroverts, which I love, but man, a brunch with them. I don't know. But also, I wouldn't really have to say much. But if they wanted to see me and talk to me, then that just feels like too much pressure.
Beth Demme (05:57):
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:58):
So I think that's a good example of, you pushing and also making me feel like... I also thought if you added something like, "Is this what our friendship means to you?"
Beth Demme (06:10):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:10):
Something even digging in some more.
Beth Demme (06:13):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:14):
I think that's something that... You love going out to eat. You love talking. You love being around people. So for you, it's nothing. It's like, "Why wouldn't you want to..."
Beth Demme (06:26):
It's true. It's like, "That's so easy."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:28):
Yeah. And of course, you want me there, so you're going to say what you're going to say. But I knew that I needed to protect myself, and that was the best way to do it, was just to decline. And if you don't want to be my friend because of that, that's sad.
Beth Demme (06:46):
But that would be my baggage not yours. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:49):
Exactly, that would be your baggage to deal with. And, even if you were annoyed, hopefully you would process and be like, "Why didn't you want to come? Oh my gosh. Oh. Maybe because she was tired from the week, and that would be exhausting."
Beth Demme (07:03):
And also to process like, "Why did it bother me so much that she didn't want to come? Why is it not okay for Steph to need to have a Saturday off or whatever?" That's the thing is, if we each do our own work, then this idea of carrying only our own baggage is really easy. But, there are a lot of times when I haven't done my work, and where I do try to pick up other people's bags. And, I feel like, it probably happens to everybody. But I will say that, being in what I would describe as a caring field, being a pastor, I care for others, that I maybe have more opportunities to pick up other people's bags. Certainly, I have more opportunity to do it now than when I wasn't in this field, when I wasn't working, or when I was working as a lawyer, that was completely different bags altogether.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:53):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (07:54):
But I have a lot of people who stop by the church and ask for help. And, it's really important to stay self differentiated and realize, "Okay, their problem is their problem. It is not my problem." So, it's almost like, there's this... But if you think about it like a Venn diagram where there are two circles and one circle is, what's best for me? And the other circle is, what's best for the person who needs help? It's where that circle meets, where the two circles meet, that's the sweet spot.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:24):
But, as you're saying this, it's making me think, wouldn't Jesus carry our bags?
Beth Demme (08:29):
I don't think Jesus would carry our bags. I think that Jesus comes alongside us and might take one handle. Right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:37):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (08:37):
Help us.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:39):
But not take them completely.
Beth Demme (08:40):
But not take it completely, because I think if Jesus just took our bags, Jesus would be taking our humanity, which is not what God would do.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:49):
Yeah. And then, how would we learn to get through situations if we always had someone carry our bags for us? If someone was always just there to pick up our bags, then we would never learn to deal with our own stuff. And we'd never almost be a full functioning human that can go through hard times and figure out... Yeah, that's interesting.
Beth Demme (09:13):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:13):
And he wouldn't carry our bags. He wouldn't jerk.
Beth Demme (09:15):
Jesus wouldn't carry our bags. No. Jesus is self differentiated.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:19):
Jerk.
Beth Demme (09:20):
He's got his own daddy issues to work on, right? Just kidding.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:24):
Oh my gosh. The ultimate daddy issues, Jesus.
Beth Demme (09:27):
Just kidding. I don't think that's how the Trinity works.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:29):
Oh, well, isn't Jesus part of-
Beth Demme (09:32):
Yes, of course. Jesus is not alone on the cross. Anyway. That's a whole different topic.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:38):
... Oh, Jesus is not a jerk.
Beth Demme (09:38):
Jesus is not a jerk.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:41):
Okay, maybe that's a podcast episode. Some Christians are jerks. But Jesus is not a jerk.
Beth Demme (09:45):
Oh, some. Only some, not all.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:48):
I mean, 50/50.
Beth Demme (09:49):
50/50. You're not. I'm not.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:53):
Well, that's a 100% in this room.
Beth Demme (09:55):
I think the challenge is knowing when to help someone with their bag and when to say, "It's not my place to help. I wouldn't really be helping them if I helped." And also, understanding how our own discomfort plays into that. We did an episode about how I interned as a hospital chaplain for five or six months in early 2021, just when the COVID vaccines were coming online. One of the big learning moments for me in that experience was being in the emergency room one day with a woman whose husband had just died in the emergency room. Because of COVID, they had stayed home and delayed getting him medical care. And by the time they made the decision to call an ambulance and get to the hospital, and potentially expose themselves to COVID, he was gone. She didn't have anybody. They were new to town. And they had moved during COVID. So they hadn't met their neighbors. And they were being very COVID-cautious. And so, she didn't know anybody. She had ridden to the hospital in the ambulance with her husband. So she didn't have a vehicle at the hospital.
(11:10):
And, I was so uncomfortable on her behalf... I'm remembering, we were sitting together, and I went and got her some water, and we were sitting together, and she was obviously... Or, understandably, she was sobbing uncontrollably, telling me how much she loved him, and telling me these beautiful things about their marriage. And then she just stopped. And she looked at me and she said, "You have the worst job ever."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:34):
Aw.
Beth Demme (11:36):
"I can't believe you have to be with people in moments like this." And I was like, "It's really an honor for me to be here with you and just to sit with you." But the idea that she had nobody to come and help her, nobody to come and pick her up, nobody that she could call to say, "This terrible thing has happened." Or, the idea of her going back to this house that had been filled with love, but now was going to... I mean, everything about it just made me so uncomfortable. I just wanted out of the situation. Well, how do I get out of the situation? I get out of the situation when she leaves the hospital. She can't leave the hospital. She has no car. So, I called her an Uber.
(12:17):
When I felt like she was ready to go home, I asked her, I was like, "Are you ready to head home? Do you want to go home? Ready to go home?" Eventually, she was ready to go home. And so, I, out of my own pocket, paid for her to have an Uber to take her home, because I just needed it to be done. Because you were uncomfortable. Because I was uncomfortable. That's not the way that a seasoned chaplain would handle that. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:41):
You're an intern.
Beth Demme (12:41):
I was an intern. I was learning. I shared it with my whole group. We do these things called verbatims, where you have to say word for word everything that happened. I went through the whole thing with them. I understood in hindsight that it was my discomfort that was at work, that I just wanted the situation to be over. But, that's an example that kind of stands out for me as a time when I picked up a bag that wasn't mine. She was an adult woman. She would've figured out how to get home.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:08):
And I wonder if the hospital even offers services like that, like free taxi rides or something like that. Because I feel like that is not abnormal for... If people come in an emergency vehicle, how do they get home?
Beth Demme (13:21):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:21):
I mean, I get there might be someone that could pick you up, but I don't know. I feel like there might have been other resources too.
Beth Demme (13:27):
I do think most people get picked up. I did once or twice spend time with patients who actually were traveling and had stopped at a hotel. And then, an ambulance brought them from the hotel to the hospital. And that was really hard on them, because they were like, "I don't even know how to get back to where I was staying, but I have to go back there, because my vehicle and all my belongings are there. And, do you think that the hotel... They kept my room, right?" Yeah. There is some... I did ask a security guard after the lady got in the Uber and left. I was like, "What should I have done?" And he was like, "Well, the charge nurse has ways to help people get home." And I was like, "Oh, okay." I mean, I figured somebody would've had a solution, but I just needed a solution immediately.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:16):
Yeah. So, you took it into your own hands instead of following the system.
Beth Demme (14:20):
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:21):
Yeah. Okay.
Beth Demme (14:21):
Yeah, I mean, think there's a lot of ways that this can come up. I think it can be something like that, where they physically can't get somewhere, but I also think it could be a lot of mental health work that hasn't been done in someone's life. I think, what you mentioned at the beginning was almost like being guilt tripped when somebody is like, "Well, why can't you just stay?" Or, "Why don't you just be with me?"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:47):
"Why don't you do more for me, and more for me, and more for me?"
Beth Demme (14:49):
Which then, becomes codependent, when someone's asking you to be with them, and then you continue to be with them, and you keep feeding into that, then you become in a codependent relationship, and that's not healthy. And it's because that person hasn't done their work. And then, you continue to feed into it. And, it happens a lot with narcissists. We talked about that with Dr. Jill some episodes ago. And talking about how narcissists tend to find somebody that they can be in a codependent relationship with, where that person will just do whatever they want, be a doormat. And then, that person doesn't recognize it ever. I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:31):
Right.
Beth Demme (15:32):
I mean, hopefully they do at some point and they're able to get out of that. But, I've seen it in my life definitely.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:39):
Yeah. And I think sometimes how that starts is, everybody likes to feel needed.
Beth Demme (15:43):
Yeah. And wants to help. And no one likes to see someone in discomfort.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:49):
Right.
Beth Demme (15:49):
Like you said, "Oh, I have to fix this. I have to fix this."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:53):
Right.
Beth Demme (15:54):
If only someone could have seen my discomfort.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Beth Demme (15:57):
And bail me out. Oh, wait, no, that's not what...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:58):
Yeah. And I think that's a hard thing is to be able to hear someone's discomfort and someone's struggles, and then to just be and leave it there.
Beth Demme (16:09):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:09):
And again, that's something that I learned in recovery was, that's something that's really hammered down is, listen, but don't fix people.
Beth Demme (16:19):
Yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:19):
And, let them do their own work. And it was a hard lesson. I remember. Or, I went through the 12 step program twice. And, I just remember it just feels wrong to not help someone with something.
Beth Demme (16:35):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:36):
And it feels wrong to not respond to something. Ultimately, it's the best thing for both parties, because you probably didn't feel great about getting an Uber for someone personally, and then sending them on their way when you realize, "I did that because I was uncomfortable. I could have easily been like, 'Let me excuse myself and go ask the nurse. What's the process for this? And oh, here we go.' Bring the nurse in her." Let her do her job like that. She's probably the one that does those things to help somebody. And, your job was to listen.
Beth Demme (17:11):
My job was to listen.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:12):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (17:13):
And, honestly, in the moment that it was happening, I justified it to myself like, "Oh my goodness, this person really needs help and I am really being so helpful."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:22):
Yeah. To make you feel better.
Beth Demme (17:24):
Right. But then I was unsettled by it, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:27):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (17:27):
And the more I reflected on it, I was like, "Oh, I wasn't being helpful. I was being helpful to myself, because I just needed out of this uncomfortable situation." But I do remember that from our step study. I don't remember any specific examples, and I wouldn't share them if I did, but I remember hearing somebody say something and thinking, "I know exactly how to handle that."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:49):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (17:49):
And you're not allowed to say it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:51):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (17:51):
And that's such good life training.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:55):
Yeah. Well, so basically what we're talking about is... A step study is a 12-week process. And you go through a step each week.
Beth Demme (18:06):
It could take longer than 12 weeks. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:07):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (18:08):
Some of those steps are real hard.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:09):
But it's questions that you have to answer at home. And then, you come in, you read them. You each read your answers. And, people just sit there and listen and listen.
Beth Demme (18:18):
And listen.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:18):
And it's the most uncomfortable, terrifying thing.
Beth Demme (18:22):
And freeing thing all at the same time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:24):
And freeing. A 100% freeing, because they can't say anything.
Beth Demme (18:27):
Yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:28):
And, that's terrifying, and also is terrifying and freeing, because you can say it, it's out in the world.
Beth Demme (18:34):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:35):
And that's something, again, I learned in therapy too, when I was dealing with PTSD is the therapy for PTSD is to say the things out loud that were holding me, binding me up, and letting them out. It seems so simple and so silly to me, the concept of just saying words, because well, I don't like saying words, so for me, it's hard. You probably have been like, "Done. I can do this. When? Right now? Done. I'll do it."
Beth Demme (19:04):
I mean, there have been times in therapy where my counselor will say, "Well, just say X, Y, Z out loud." And I'll be like, "Eh."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:12):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (19:13):
And I can't get it out.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:13):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (19:15):
There's so much emotion attached to it that it can't be said.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:17):
Yeah. And it's so important just to say it, and then to have nothing in response. I mean, obviously in therapy it's a little different than in Celebrate Recovery, which is why it's always good to have multiple outlets for recovery. I was in therapy at the same time that I was doing the step study, and just those in combination were definitely a good thing. And my therapist, she'll just listen also, she doesn't have to respond. Which, if you've never been to therapy, and then your therapist isn't responding to you, you're probably like, "I am not getting my money's worth. Why am I here?"
Beth Demme (19:53):
"Why is this person not fixing this?" Guess what?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:56):
But it's a process. Yeah, you're fixing yourself.
Beth Demme (19:59):
By saying those things. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:59):
They're letting you carry your own bags.
Beth Demme (20:00):
I know. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:02):
Yeah, you are doing the work by just saying the words. And it's just so simple, but just so hard. I always encourage therapy. And, I encourage therapy for people in my life who... Well, I think everyone could benefit from therapy, number one. But, there are people in my life that there are things that are still holding them back. And, I can see it, and I really, really want them to work on those things. But, I don't let it keep me up at night, because that's not my baggage.
Beth Demme (20:34):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:35):
That is their baggage. And, the only way for that to be dealt with is for them to deal with it. And, I can only do what I can do. I can remind them about therapy, I can suggest it, but I can't make the appointment for them. I can't drive them there. I can't sit there and hold their hand, because that's not going to... I mean, you see this in movies and stuff where people force... And when people are forced to go to therapy through legal means, it does nothing for them.
(21:03):
My therapist, Jill, we had her on, she says, she doesn't do marriage counseling anymore. She used to do couples counseling when they were... Well, just couples counseling in general, because she found that there was always one person that wanted to go, and the other person was being forced to come. And it never really got anywhere, because both parties weren't really wanting to work on it, and they ultimately got divorced. And so, forcing never works. So, well, for me, the answer has been, if there are people in my life that haven't worked on their stuff, but they ultimately have to be in my life, family or someone that I have to interact with.
Beth Demme (21:38):
It can be complicated with family for sure.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:40):
Yeah. But my answer is how do I protect myself from their stuff? How can I interact with them but not let it affect my mental health? And that's usually how I handle those situations if they haven't handled their mental health.
Beth Demme (21:53):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:55):
And, that's why I'm still in therapy, because it's something I'm constantly working on, because life is ever-changing, and so there's always new stuff to talk about, and to analyze, and figure out the best way of handling them.
Beth Demme (22:08):
Even the idea that, "Okay, I'm going to work on myself." Or, "I'm going to take a break from this family relationship, because of my own mental health, because I'm going to take care of myself." That can feel selfish.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:25):
Yeah. And then, it's okay to be curious about that. "Oh, why does that feel selfish?"
Beth Demme (22:28):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:29):
Because I think, just a lot of things in life... I think, the concept of life is that is selfish, is not help someone as much as you can.
Beth Demme (22:41):
Definitely.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:41):
And I think you do that in church a lot.
Beth Demme (22:42):
Definitely.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:43):
I think church really is like, "Help others just like Jesus would, da, da, da."
Beth Demme (22:47):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:47):
And not a lot of emphasis on help yourself, because it sounds selfish, but that's the only way you can ever help somebody is by helping yourself and by you be mentally well, can you be mentally well for someone else? And, being mentally well for someone else doesn't mean that you do things for that person. It may just mean that you are constant healthy example in someone's life. And hopefully, they will make those changes in their life, but that's not your job to do, is to make those changes.
Beth Demme (23:18):
Yeah. I'm sure we've said it before, but there are some things... Pretty much anything, and you learn this in therapy for sure, but you can't really go around. You got to just got to go through it, which is like you were saying about PTSD and having to just say the things, because you just got to go through it. You got to carry yourself through it.
(23:38):
And if we pick up somebody else's bags, we're really trying to help them get around it, which means, we're not helping them at all. We're actually just slowing down their opportunity for self-awareness, and their opportunity to self-actualize, and really handle themselves. And that's not selfish. That's actually really generous.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:58):
Yeah. But it's a harder concept, I would say, because on the surface... Which is why we have to do our own work so we can recognize those situations.
Beth Demme (24:09):
And there are times when we can do tasks for other people. If someone is not well, my mom's had a pretty rough year with her health. So, I've taken her to doctor's appointments. I'm not doing anything for her. You're not doing a task to help support her. Or if someone's going through a rough time and maybe we take them a meal or call and check on them.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:30):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (24:31):
That's not picking up their baggage, that's being a friend, or being a family member, being a loved one.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:36):
It's offering love. It's showing support and love in some way. But I think it's a fine line to figure out, is this baggage? Is this love and support? Figuring out what that looks like.
Beth Demme (24:48):
Yeah. You mentioned about how church can muddy this issue, because it's so often the message is care for others. That is an important aspect of the Christian faith. I think it's true of other faiths too. And it's really meant to be a corrective against greed and selfishness that is detrimental to others. But it definitely gets muddy.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:10):
Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the church. I grew up in the same church. I went a lot to services. And that's really a big driving theme that I can remember is, "Go in the community, and serve others, and do this, and do this." And I don't remember the conversation of, "Take care of yourself. Work on your stuff." That is not part of the Christian conversation that I remember, which is why Celebrate Recovery was such a refreshing program, because it's a Christian-centered 12-step recovery program. And it does focus on that. It focuses on take care of your stuff through a Christian lens, which is something that was foreign to me, growing up in the church it was foreign to me to be even presented with that.
Beth Demme (25:58):
Bottom line of all of that is when it comes to church, the greatest commandment in the Christian Church is love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:07):
Yes.
Beth Demme (26:08):
So loving yourself is not selfish. Live in a way that... In Methodism, what we would say is Christian perfection is when your heart is so filled with love of God and neighbor, that all your motives are pure.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:22):
Well, and if you think about that, love your neighbor as yourself.
Beth Demme (26:26):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:26):
So, how can you love your neighbor well, if you don't love yourself well.
Beth Demme (26:30):
You don't love yourself.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:30):
So, you must love yourself well to be able to love others.
Beth Demme (26:33):
Yes. I have often thought that that is exactly what is wrong with the world, is that people are loving their neighbors. They're really hating their neighbors the way they hate themselves.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:42):
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Beth Demme (26:42):
And, man, we got to be doing our own work. And, I get discouraged sometimes because the work is endless.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:51):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (26:52):
I'm never going to get to a point where I'm like, "Oh, my work is done." It's like, "Oh, here's a new layer." Or, "Here's a new thing I've realized that I need to work on."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:03):
And it can be exhausting, but for me, that's why I have my life set up the way I do and why I do therapy at least once a month, because I know life never ends. And, just because I've dealt with a whole lot of stuff doesn't mean that there's not going to be more stuff I need to work on. And, I wouldn't say I welcome all the new stuff, but I don't have the anger that I used to have when new stuff comes up like, "Why? Why is it a thing?" I'm like, "Okay. Let me process this. Okay." Actually, I just the other day was feeling weird about something and couldn't figure it out. And then, I was like, "Oh, oh, okay." And realized, "Oh, that's from that. Okay, great."
Beth Demme (27:45):
Right. Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:46):
But just taking the time to really process, and it takes time, and it's not fun. But, for me, once it clicks, I'm like, "Oh, okay."
Beth Demme (27:56):
And, it's not selfish.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:58):
No, it's not selfish at all.
Beth Demme (28:00):
Because you got to be able to carry your own bags, because I cannot carry anybody else's bags, and nobody else can carry my bags. This is the thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:09):
I mean, just imagine an airport where everyone's carrying their own bags, that image, that's what we need in life, just for us to be carrying them. And, I mean, if someone's struggling, sure, if they drop something, pick it up and hand it to them. You can do those things. But, you don't just completely take it for them, because they need to go through that struggle, as we all have to. That's just a process we have to go through.
Beth Demme (28:38):
Right. Don't deprive them of the learning that comes from that, or the self-awareness that comes from that, or the personal growth that comes from it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:44):
And don't make it about you if someone did drop it bag. Don't make that about you. Don't make that uncomfortness of that affect you. You could stand there and watch them if that's what needs to happen.
Beth Demme (28:57):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:57):
If you need to take that. But, you have to analyze, is this about me or is this about them in that moment?
Beth Demme (29:03):
Yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:03):
And I think there's no easy answer whether you pick it up or you let them pick it up.
Beth Demme (29:07):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:08):
You have to really figure out in that moment, "Is this about me?" And, if it is, just stand there.
Beth Demme (29:14):
There's often this nice moment on flights where someone will... This may be a stereotype, but this is just my experience. It's usually an older lady, someone older than me, she'll have a hard time getting her bag up into the overhead or getting it back down. And always, there are people there who are willing to help. Right? What do they do? They get the bag down and they hand it to her. They don't carry it out off the plane for her.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:42):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (29:42):
Right? The nice thing to do is just to help, so that then offer support.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:48):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (29:48):
Offer support.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:49):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (29:49):
But let her carry her bag.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:51):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (29:52):
That's a good way to love your neighbor.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:56):
At the end of each episode, we end the questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website.
Beth Demme (30:06):
Number one, reflect on your own bags. What are you carrying today? Number two, where do you fit into this conversation? Do you naturally try to carry other people's baggage or not? Number three, when it comes to carrying baggage, do you think there are different rules for family than for friends? And number four, how do you handle it when you can tell someone wants you to pick up their baggage?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:35):
This has been Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us.