Discovering My Scars: Chapter 8 "Apple"

In this episode of the Discovering Our Scars Podcast, hosts Beth Demme and Stephanie Kostopoulos discuss chapter 8 of Steph's memoir, "Discovering My Scars." They discuss Steph's experience working at Apple and her passion for the company. They also delve into her experience of being sexually harassed in the workplace and the lack of appropriate response from HR. The episode ends with reflection questions for listeners to consider.

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Stephanie Kostopoulos : https://www.stephaniekostopoulos.com/
Beth Demme: http://bethdemme.com/

Transcript

Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:05):
Where we share personal experiences we can learn from each other. I'm Steph.

Beth Demme (00:08):
And I'm Beth.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:09):
I've been in recovery for 17 years and I'm the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about what's done in the Darkness eventually comes to light.

Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:22):
Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host.

Beth Demme (00:29):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:34):
We value honest Conversations. We hope you do too.

Beth Demme (00:37):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled Discovering My Scars: Chapter Eight.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:42):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with questions for reflection. We'll invite you to reflect in the conversation in your own life.

Beth Demme (00:49):
Okay, so it's time for another installment of your memoir, Discovering My Scars. We're going through it chapter by chapter, listening to it and offering commentary and asking questions.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:00):
So we are on chapter eight titled Apple. What do you think Apple's about? Well, you know, you've already pre-read it. Nevermind. That's probably a spoiler.

Beth Demme (01:11):
Yeah. It's not about the apples you eat.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:14):
No, there you go. Yes. It's about the best company in the world, obviously. The most valuable company in the world.

Beth Demme (01:22):
And no brainwashing has occurred.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:26):
I don't know why she's laughing right now.

Beth Demme (01:27):
I'm just saying.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:28):
I'm not sure.

Beth Demme (01:28):
There's one part in this chapter. I'm like, "Okay. Wow. All right." Let's get to it.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:33):
Apply is the best company in the world, the most valuable company. That is just fact and I have not been brainwashed to say that. I love the product, the product loves me, we're a happy family. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

Beth Demme (01:49):
I'm sure Siri will report back that you have said everything correctly.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:52):
All right, so we will play the book and this is the audio from my audiobook version of my book, and then we'll kind of break into it and dig into it a little bit more.

Audiobook (02:07):
Chapter Eight: Apple. In the summer of 2007, I walked into the Apple Store in the mall at Millennia in Orlando. I was looking for a new monitor. I had been in this Apple Store once before in 2004, when I came with my friends for our Disney spring break trip. The store was even better than I remembered. It was nice and open with wood fixtures and all the apple products on display. I wanted it all, but I headed to the monitors. Jeff walked up to me wearing a black Apple t-shirt with a clever phrase and asked what I was looking for. We got to talking about how I use my Mac. I shared my passion for video editing and how much the software Final Cut Pro was part of my workflow.

(02:45):
My pure passion blew Jeff away. With so much passion of his own, he said that I needed to work for Apple. That sounded like a dream so of course I applied, oh, and I got the job. A few months before, I had been hired by Walt Disney World to work at the Indiana Jones Epic Stunt Spectacular show. Don't get excited, I didn't do stunts, but I could pack the audience into the theater with perfection. So in my last year of college, I filled all my time with classes and internship, Disney and Apple. I have no idea how I did it all, but I did and enjoyed it. It felt good to have places to be, to have jobs to do, and to have purpose.

(03:25):
When I was working, no one knew about Nicole's Place. No one knew what I had experienced and seen. They just knew I was a good worker. As for my arm, I covered my scars with skin colored patches, special makeup or an armband. One of the positions at Disney was to hold my arms up at my sides and point left and right with my fingers. This fully exposed my scars to everyone walking into the theater. It gave me a lot of anxiety whenever I was assigned this position, but no one ever said anything to me about my scars.

(03:56):
When I graduated college in winter of 2008, I was promoted to a full-time position as a creative at Apple. My job there was not exactly video production, but as a creative, I taught one-to-one customers how to use Final Cut Pro along with other software. It kept my production needs satisfied a little. It felt so good to teach and see someone grow and learn in just an hour. At the time Apple hired me, I was one of just a handful of women employees at my store. That didn't seem strange to me as I was typically one of the only females in my various jobs. Our store leader was a woman, which was nice, but we'd never saw her in the store. Then one day in August 2009, we found out that our store leader had left Apple to work for Microsoft. She had taken half our employees with her. It was shocking and devastating.

(04:44):
I'm very loyal and did not work for Apple for the money, though that was nice and important. I worked for Apple because I believed in the products, the brand and the corporate leadership. It felt like a personal attack when those employees left. I felt like there were enemies among me the whole time and I never knew it.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:02):
Is this the part that you were concerned about with my love of Apple?

Beth Demme (05:07):
Yes. This is the part where I just wanted to check in about the level of brainwashing.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:11):
I want to say I currently, obviously I don't work for Apple. I haven't worked for Apple for many, many years. I still love them as much as I did before I worked for them, when I worked for them, and now I still love the products just as much. They're not as innovative as they used to be. I was there at the heyday of the iPhone coming out, the iPad. We had some big product launches, and now they still have good products, but they're more just updating the stuff that they have invented. But I still love it as much and I still would be heartbroken if people left to go to a competitor because I don't understand why you would do that.

Beth Demme (05:51):
So was it especially that they went to Microsoft or was it just that they left?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:57):
That they went to Microsoft because Microsoft wanted to directly compete with Apple Stores, so they wanted to create their own stores. Spoiler alert, they failed miserably because they were dumb and they all are gone now, by the way, the Microsoft store, so it had-

Beth Demme (06:12):
This Apple Store is in fact still there.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:15):
Oh, yeah. My Apple Store that I worked is still there. All the Apple Stores are still there and there's more Apple stores. Still not one in Tallahassee. Upset about that, yes. I was upset that Microsoft was trying to directly compete, and their answer to that was just to take Apple employees. That is just so unethical to me. It's just like, I'm just going to go steal Apple employees, give them a bunch of money to leave, but then they went under because they didn't have a leg to stand on with their company. When you just try to steal someone's idea without having any ideas of your own, it's never going to be successful because you're just trying to take some of the share off of somebody else, but you're not actually creating anything and bringing any value. You're just trying to take something that someone else has already created.

Beth Demme (07:01):
Well, as you say in your book, you're very loyal and you did not work at Apple for the money, though that was nice and important so...

Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:09):
They pay well.

Beth Demme (07:10):
I'm sure no one listening senses any brainwashing. I'm sure I'm the only one who senses it.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:16):
I'm very loyal to the things I'm loyal to, and that is something that... Is it a corporation? Yes. Are there a lot of corruption corporations? Yes. Are corporations always out for our own good? No.

Beth Demme (07:32):
Never.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:32):
Look at our government. No.

Beth Demme (07:34):
Never.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:34):
Absolutely. I understand the bigger picture of that, but I am loyal to the things I'm loyal to. I really like Home Depot. I go to Home Depot. That's where my happy place. There's REI, I love REI. There's a lot of brands and stores like that that I am loyal to and really have a connection to, but I would... Well, I probably wouldn't work for Home Depot in the sense of at the store.

Beth Demme (07:55):
Yeah.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:56):
I have worked for Home Depot. I have gotten checks from Home Depot. That's nice. And I would possibly work at an REI possibly, but again, my retail experience was Apple and I'm pretty good. One and done. But yeah, that's just how I am in general. So it's not like Apple specific, but I'm like, if you want to call it brainwashed, I'm brainwashed by other companies as well. I call it loyal to quality.

Beth Demme (08:22):
Okay. Recently in the United Methodist Church, there's been a lot of people and people are leaving to go to other Methodist denominations or to create new ones, and I am really displeased by it, and so I actually do understand.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:35):
See, oh my gosh, you made me have this whole thing, and then you're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I get that."

Beth Demme (08:41):
I do get that. Yeah. Yeah.

Audiobook (08:44):
Soon after these employees left, the position of lead creative became available. This person's role was to lead the creative team of about seven people. I had a passion for the store and team and thought I could do some good. My fellow creatives encouraged me to apply, so I did. I prepared so much for the interview. Once I made up my mind, I knew I was the right person for the job. As our store leader was gone, one of the longtime managers, Sean, became acting store leader. I'd never had a good feeling about Sean. I always felt a little uncomfortable around him, but I didn't know why. I didn't let that affect the job interview however and I rocked it.

(09:21):
One day, Sean called me into the manager's office and told me the good news. I got the job. I would be getting a big pay increase of 10%. I didn't know what to say. 10% was like $2 more an hour than I was making as a creative. Lead creative was completely different responsibilities. I said, "That's it? 10% doesn't sound right. I'm going to bring so much value to this role as I laid out in my business plan during the interview." Sean looked at me very matter of fact and said, "10% is a standard pay increase for this position. I don't have the authority to change that." "Well, who does have the authority? We don't have a store leader, so who's in charge?" I asked. "I could talk to the store leader at the Florida Mall Apple Store if you want," Sean said dryly. "Yes, please. Can I talk to her?" "No, I'll handle it and let you know," Sean said.

(10:08):
After all that, two things saddened me. One, this was the first time I really felt discriminated against for being a woman. Two, Sean came back to me with a puny 15% raise final offer. Since I was already being paid on the low scale for a creative, the raise was still not significant, but I took it because I felt defeated, ashamed, and wanted to be done with a fight.

Beth Demme (10:31):
Okay, so I want to stop you there. How much of a pay increase were you expecting? Did you have information about how much to expect?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:39):
I don't remember at the time, but like I said, I was already getting paid on the low... I knew what creatives were getting paid, and of course, Apple was one of those places where you get a small pay increase every year so people that have worked there longer would be getting paid more. But I expected to be getting paid more than any of my creatives and me getting 10% more, there were still creatives getting paid more than me.

Beth Demme (11:03):
You were going to supervise people who are making more money than you?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:07):
Yes. Yes.

Beth Demme (11:07):
That doesn't [inaudible 00:11:08].

Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:08):
Which I understand they had been working there longer, but still that doesn't make sense to me that as a leader of this team, that I would not have a significant... at least be making more than a creative.

Beth Demme (11:22):
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:23):
So I didn't have a percentage in mind. Again, I don't remember at the time what it was, but I was definitely... And I knew what the old creative, lead creative, who was a man, I knew what he was making, and again, I don't know what the number was, but it was significantly lower than what he was making.

Beth Demme (11:44):
You were offered significantly less than what the man-

Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:45):
What the man was being paid. Again, he had worked there longer, but still like, in my mind, I'm like, "That doesn't matter. Why can't I... If you were paying this man this much, how could you not have the money to pay me that much?"

Beth Demme (11:59):
Yeah, and even if there were creatives on the team who had been there longer, if the store didn't feel like, oh, they're the ones who should be lead creative, it doesn't make sense that the lead creative wouldn't be paid to supervise them. I mean, that doesn't make sense to me either.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:14):
I think it's in the book somewhere. I don't think it's in this chapter, but years later, when we had a new store manager, so every year you would get a small 3% to 4% pay increase. Everyone would. Years later, the store leader looked at how much I was getting paid, which was this 15% more. It had never changed beyond a little bit more each year. He looked at what I was getting paid and he realized how low it was, and he gave me a 25% raise.

Beth Demme (12:39):
Oh, wow.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:41):
That shows you how low I was getting from this. That was the highest ever given in the store for just a pay increase. 25% just as a pay increase, which is normally three to four for people. So that should show you that I was making such a little amount for years, and then he finally... And he was a great manager, and we worked really well together, and he saw how good I was doing and he-

Beth Demme (13:06):
Right. He could look at it and see that it wasn't equitable, that there was some discrimination that had taken place, gender, age, maybe both. Right?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:15):
Bias. Yeah, lots of things. And the fact that he recognized that, he actually... You really never do that, but he was able to make that happen because he realized the error that had happened years before and there was nothing I could do. You had to have someone like that that would push to make that happen. And this Sean guy obviously didn't push to make that happen and could care less.

Beth Demme (13:37):
Is his name really Sean?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:38):
No.

Beth Demme (13:39):
No.

Audiobook (13:42):
As lead creative, I was the youngest on the leadership team. My responsibilities quickly grew when I went from overseeing just creatives to the whole family room, which was made up of about 50 people. Many days, my responsibilities and the metrics we needed to hit overwhelmed me. I still struggle with self-injury. I still struggle with depression. I still, deep down was scared I would be sent back to Nicole's Place, but I pushed through all those feelings and spent my days laser focused on my job. I didn't focus on a personal life. I focused on being the best lead creative I could be. That started with me developing my own leadership skills. I spent many hours reading about leadership, business and how to develop a team.

(14:26):
I planned an outdoor team building activity where we spent half a day in a park learning to trust and encourage each other. The team went to the opening of Legoland. And for the holidays, we visited Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party at Magic Kingdom. I did my very best and tried to earn the respect of my team, but as hard as I tried, some team members still saw me as the man. One day on the sales floor, I was standing off to the side with my iPad, checking the schedule to see who needed to take their break. I was an earshot of a group from the family room team. They were talking about this and that, and then I heard my name and I heard them all agree that I was a B word. Previously, my coworker and friend Jason told me he had overheard them, call me this, but it hit much harder hearing it for myself.

(15:13):
It's just a word, but it was used in a mean and hateful way. It punched me right in the gut, and I had a rush of emotions that I didn't know what to do with, but I was at work on the sales floor so I pushed down my emotions and went to help customers. I distracted myself with work during the whole shift. When I got home, I lost it. I was fully crying and couldn't stop. Jason came over and I just lay in the backseat of his car as he drove around and I vented. I felt defeated. He drove me to Sonic and got me a limeade, which is my fave.

(15:47):
On the drive home, I was still lamenting what my team had said about me, then it hit me, "Do kids always like their parents? Do kids say mean things to them? Most people don't like authority and the person they have to report to. Maybe I am a B and maybe that's okay. Maybe a B is someone who stands up for herself, doesn't back down and does the job that needs to be done in the way it needs to be done," I told Jason. I dried my tears. Just a few people had uttered those words about me, not the whole team. Some team members did respect me, and I had bosses who were proud of me. I was not going to let this group of people bring me down. This was the first time I really had to address haters in my life. This experience has served me well, especially with social media and online haters.

Beth Demme (16:33):
So the B word is uniquely female.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:36):
Yes.

Beth Demme (16:37):
Right?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:38):
It's a female dog.

Beth Demme (16:39):
Yeah. So there's an element of this where it's like, well, they never would've called the last lead creative that because-

Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:46):
Yeah. It was a man.

Beth Demme (16:46):
... he was a man. But you did get to a point where you realized, oh, this is just a reaction to authority rather than a reaction to you personally.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:56):
I still think it was a reaction to a female in authority because I was a good leader. I did my job well. Like, this is my job and I'm going to do it and I'm not going to let you slack and I'm going to call you out if you're standing on the sales floor and you're not doing anything because we're here to work. We're here to promote Apple, and if we make some sales, that's awesome. But you standing there, not talking to anybody is not the job that you're here to do. And I wouldn't be ashamed, that's my job, and I believe in what we're doing, so I'm like, want you to believe in it too. The more I think about it's like, well, if a man was doing that, what would you call him?

Beth Demme (17:39):
Boss? Leader?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:40):
Yeah, he's being a leader.

Beth Demme (17:41):
Effective,

Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:42):
Like, "Okay, it's time to do our job." So I do think it was a reaction to having a woman boss, basically, and I was younger than most of them, and they were all men as well. And I think a lot of times men will use that word to hurt a woman and to try to put women in their place, and obviously as a young woman, that is what it did. The first time it happens, that definitely happens. That reaction probably is what happens. But the older I get and the more I get called things and whatever, it's just like, okay. Well, and now I get a lot of that in YouTube comments, and I just delete those and don't even give them the time of day because...

Beth Demme (18:30):
Because they don't deserve the time of day.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:31):
No, they don't.

Beth Demme (18:32):
They don't deserve any space.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:33):
That's not a constructive conversation.

Beth Demme (18:36):
Right.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:36):
That is nothing that we need in this world and so...

Beth Demme (18:39):
But as a young woman in your first leadership role, I can understand that that would've been... That would've taken me a minute. I would've had to process that for sure, and I would have taken it personally until I processed it to say, "Oh, this is actually a reflection of them, not a reflection of me, because I know that I'm not being that. I'm not being cruel. I'm not being overly aggressive or assertive. I'm just doing my job."

Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:09):
Yeah.

Beth Demme (19:09):
Yeah.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:10):
Yeah. And I think as women, as girls, we are taught to be liked and to be nice and to be sweet and don't cause a fuss, all of these things. I think it's something that was squarely in my face that I had never... It was like the opposite of everything the society has told me I'm supposed to be. But then the society also tells you, you can do anything and be your own boss and dah, dah, dah, and then when I'm doing that, then I'm getting this, and so it's just this very something that you don't face until you face. And then you have to figure out, what do I do with this?

Audiobook (19:58):
I did have a group of cheerleaders on my team, Jason being one, and Daniel being another. When Daniel was hired, every interaction I had with him truly impressed me. He was so positive. Even if the store was on fire and we were stuck and couldn't get out, he would've stayed positive and figured out how to get us out.

(20:17):
Along with his genuinely amazing attitude, he was also encouraging. He had no time for haters and always put into perspective what a great job I was doing. He was and is my loudest cheerleader. Even more inspiring for me is the fact that he has type 1 diabetes and never lets it slow him down. I've always been in awe of how much this affects his life, but his attitude is still the same. He has to constantly be on top of his health or he could pass out or worse. Still, he lives to the fullest and welcomes each day with open arms and excitement.

(20:49):
Daniel's friendship and kind spirit helped me look inward and see my own struggles. I began to see my anxiety, depression, and self-injury less as burdens and more just as parts of me. I started to wonder, how can I live my best life and not let my mental issues define me?

Beth Demme (21:07):
I just wanted to pause there to say that we've recorded two episodes with Daniel.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:11):
Three episodes.

Beth Demme (21:12):
Three?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:13):
Remember, you don't like to think of the middle one?

Beth Demme (21:15):
No, I liked that one.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:17):
About how he's a conservative and I'm a liberal and can we agree on things or can we have an honest conversation? We had three episodes, one about him having diabetes, one about conservative and liberal, and one about how men think.

Beth Demme (21:30):
Yeah. Okay, that's right. So we've had three episodes with Daniel, and we'll put a link to those in the show notes so that you can get to know Daniel better if you haven't had a chance to listen to those yet.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:38):
Yeah. So it is kind of fun. I realized as I listened to that. I was like, "Oh, we had to have him on the podcast because he's the best." And he still is that same, like how I talked about him. He's still that same personality, just really encouraging, a really good guy.

Audiobook (21:53):
A few years later, I had another encounter with Sean. After serving as acting store leader, he became the business manager of the store. His job was to get business customers to switch to Macs. He's a very strong-willed salesman, so I guess it was a good role for him. If you're not familiar with the Apple Store, early on, the color of team member shirts varied depending on their job. As lead creative, I wore the same shirt as my team.

(22:15):
One day Sean had a great idea. He thought to bring more awareness to the business team. He would get store leaders to wear business shirts. The business team shirts were pretty different from all the other store shirts. They were collared, made from a nice material and were all black with a little white apple on the left sleeve. I put on my new business shirt and went to work December 1st, 2010.

(22:37):
Every morning before the store opened, we had a store meeting in the back of house. This particular morning, Sean led the morning meeting. I happened to be standing next to him because my desk was near his. He talked about the day and of course, reminded everyone to talk about business. He also reminded the team about the new initiative for leaders to wear business shirts. Then he turned to me, looked right in my face, put his hand on my shoulder, and announced to the whole team, "Stephanie looked so sexy in her new business shirt." Several uncomfortable moments passed. No one knew what to say. I think even Sean realized that what he said was inappropriate. I just don't think he was sure why. Then he took his hand off my shoulder, nudged me in the side and said, "I mean, you always look good, but especially good in a business shirt." Then he looked back at the store employees as they all stared at the two of us. He closed the meeting and the employees filtered out to the sales floor.

(23:34):
In that moment, I went numb. I had never been sexualized in such a public way. Everyone was gone from the back of house. I just stood there feeling ashamed, embarrassed, and used. A few of my friends came up to me afterwards and said Sean's words made them feel uncomfortable and asked how I was. One of my good friends on the business team told me he was going to tell Sean how inappropriate his statement was.

(23:58):
A few days later, Sean did come up to me and say, "I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable the other day. I didn't mean any harm by it." Another employee told me that if I was that upset about it, I should report it to human resources, HR. I had no experience with sexual harassment in the workplace and what would happen, but I did contact HR. My HR rep was a man who asked me a lot of questions. I answered them as best I could. A month later, nothing happened. I don't know what I wanted to happen. I had been sexually harassed in the workplace, I reported it, and that was it. I followed the process. I think HR told Sean to apologize again, and he did. This time, using lots of legal words. That's all I remember. Sean's desk continued to be right next to mine.

(24:43):
I didn't realize it at the time because this happened before I learned about some sexual abuse I had endured as a child, but this moment was a flashback for me. It was a flashback that I did not understand. It was filled with feelings from my past and thoughts my brain had shut down. I can't say whether this event affected me more than it should have. I don't know if another woman in the same situation would've felt the same as me. But I do know this, what Sean did was wrong. A few years after me, he left Apple and went to work for Microsoft.

Beth Demme (25:16):
Okay, that's the end of chapter eight.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:17):
Yup.

Beth Demme (25:18):
So I think there are a couple of things to unpack there. One, what a jerk, right? I mean, come on, Sean, do better, be better. I'm going to just take a stab in the dark that Sean's a white man?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:31):
Yes.

Beth Demme (25:34):
The way he apologizes like I'm not-

Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:36):
Such a white man that did something wrong and will never understand.

Beth Demme (25:40):
Yeah. I'm not holding you to these were his exact words, but the idea of, "I'm sorry if... "

Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:48):
Yeah.

Beth Demme (25:48):
No.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:48):
That's not an apology.

Beth Demme (25:49):
No. I'm sorry I said something inappropriate. I made a mistake. Please forgive me.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:56):
Yeah. I understand why this was wrong. I apologize. Yeah.

Beth Demme (26:01):
I was wrong to say that.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:02):
Yeah.

Beth Demme (26:03):
Not, you're wrong for being uncomfortable, which is really what that kind of apology says.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:06):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, and again, I'm in my twenties, early twenties or mid-twenties. I didn't know how to handle the situation. All I knew was I felt really uncomfortable, and then HR did nothing.

Beth Demme (26:19):
Right.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:20):
Do I think it's a fireable offense? No, but the fact that we continued to sit next to each other. I guess for me, looking at it, I think the appropriate thing would've been to transfer him to a different Apple Store because there was three Apple Stores in the area, and I think that would've done something, some action.

Beth Demme (26:45):
And to give him some training about why what he did was inappropriate. I think everybody can make a mistake and hopefully everyone can learn. But it doesn't mean that you needed to continue to be subjected to him. And it doesn't mean that he should just be told, "Oh, you should apologize." No, you should understand, and I'm going to say should, you should understand why what you did was wrong. Yeah.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:10):
Yeah. And no further action offered to me. No therapy was offered to me, no extra time to... There's nothing offered to me as the victim here.

Beth Demme (27:22):
Right.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:23):
I'm not saying that they needed to pay me or anything like that. And I'm assuming, especially in a post Me Too world that we're in now, I'm assuming something like this would've been handled differently in today's day and age, and also just this was how many years ago. So I would hope there would be better follow through with something like this and taking serious, especially since everyone in the store heard it. Everyone was subjected to this, everyone. Like I said, people did come up to me and tell me they were uncomfortable with this. My friend on the business team who was a white man, he was like, "That was inappropriate.".

Beth Demme (27:57):
Right.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:58):
And he was like, "I'll talk to him." But like, that's great. Yes, white men need to talk to white men and have these conversations, a thousand percent, but there needs to be more, and it's not my job to figure out what that is, but you guys figure that out. Be better for women in the workplace. Be better for just people in this world. My hope is that it's happening now. I'm obviously not working there now for hearing these stories, but I'm hoping that that workplaces overall have changed where it's safer for women.

Beth Demme (28:32):
Yeah. And at a minimum, learn how to apologize.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:35):
So that was chapter eight of Discovering My Scars, and we will follow that up with chapter nine in a couple episodes.

Beth Demme (28:46):
Yeah, stay tuned.

Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:47):
Stay tuned.

(28:52):
At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website.

Beth Demme (29:02):
Number one, Steph was passionate about her commitment to Apple. Have you ever had that kind of passion for a job? How did it work out for you? Number two, have you ever been sexually harassed in the workplace or witnessed it? What was that like for you? Number three, have you been in a job where you made less than the people you supervised or vice versa, where you made more than your supervisor? Did that feel fair? Why or why not? And number four, who are the cheerleaders in your life?

Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:35):
This has been Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.