Discovering Our Scars
Discovering Our Scars
Discovering My Scars: Chapter 6 "74 Hours"
We continue our journey with Steph through her memoir, Discovering My Scars. Steph and Beth listen to Chapter 6 of the audiobook and discuss it. In this chapter, Steph remains in the mental hospital, more prisoner than patient. She’s told, again, to play the game and do things that will “add positively” to her case. But she experiences moments of awareness and humanity, too. She begins to wonder why her heart and brain are disconnected. She begins to wonder if self-injury is not the issue, but rather the symptom.
Full transcript and show notes here: https://bit.ly/dospod142
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Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other. I'm Steph.
Beth Demme (00:08):
And I'm Beth.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:09):
I've been in recovery for 16 years and am the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about what's done in the darkness eventually comes to light.
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:22):
Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only named that came to mind as co-host.
Beth Demme (00:29):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:35):
We value honest conversations and we hope you do too.
Beth Demme (00:38):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled: Discovering My Scars, Chapter Six.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:43):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with questions for reflection, where we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life. All right. Here we go again, Beth. We have done this five times so far.
Beth Demme (00:54):
Yes. Good.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:55):
And we are now on to Chapter Six of my book.
Beth Demme (00:58):
Yeah, we're going to dive into your memoir. Chapter Six is titled 74 Hours.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:02):
Mm-hmm.
Beth Demme (01:03):
So you're in the hospital at this point?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:06):
Yes.
Beth Demme (01:06):
Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:07):
So the book is broken into three sections, actually. There is Hospital, Abuse, and Recovery. And so, we are on the last chapter of the hospital section. So just like we've done in the past, we are going to play the audio of the chapter and then we will stop periodically to discuss. And the audio is from my audiobook version of my book that I recorded with my voice. So you'll hear this voice, but saying, "My book."
Beth Demme (01:41):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:42):
This is the voice.
Beth Demme (01:43):
But it's not you. You're not sitting here reading it right now.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:45):
No.
Beth Demme (01:46):
We're using a recording from when you recorded it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:49):
Years ago.
Beth Demme (01:50):
The audiobook.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:50):
Yes.
Audio (01:53):
Chapter 6, 74 Hours. I waited patiently outside the nurse's box for visiting hours to begin. My roommate Megan had called me earlier in the day to tell me she would be coming to see me. She would be bringing two things I really needed, a quality toothbrush and two-ply toilet paper.
(02:11):
Megan and I had just met a few months before, but had become fast friends. We shared a lot about our personal lives. I had told her about my history with self-injury. Megan was so different from me, but we respected each other and our differences. When Megan arrived, I jumped up and down inside my head with glee. We made light of the hospital, laughing and played Human for an hour. I told her about Nicole and some of the people I had met. She asked me what she should tell people if they ask where I was. I said, "I don't care, whatever you want." "How about I tell them you're at Nicole's place?" Megan said. "Ha, that's a good code word for it," I said. "I like it. Nicole's place it is."
(02:50):
After Megan left, I headed to dinner. In the dining room, a new guy told me that I looked like his daughter. He was probably in his forties or fifties and looked like he had done a lot of living. His face was worn from the things he had seen. I couldn't see it at first because we were sitting down, but he showed me where he had a chunk shot out of his leg in a war. His whole calf was missing. It looked strange. How could he still walk? He seemed pretty normal; he had just lived a lot of life. I never asked what he was in the hospital for.
Beth Demme (03:21):
Okay, so I'm going to stop you there. Megan, who has come to visit you, is not the roommate who ate your food?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:30):
No. Yeah. I had three random roommates in college, and Megan was the one that I was the closest to.
Beth Demme (03:38):
And this person, it sounds like maybe he was a veteran?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:42):
Yes. Yeah. I would assume.
Beth Demme (03:43):
And he had this, it sounds like a pretty horrible injury to his leg?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:50):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (03:51):
I know it's been a while, but do you remember, even as you're hearing your own voice read this back, do you remember how that came up? Was it like, "Hey." In Forrest Gump, what's his name? "I'm Dan. I'm Dan, and this is my injury."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:04):
Well, I think the reason we started talking was because I looked like his daughter.
Beth Demme (04:10):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:10):
And so, I don't remember exactly how things transpired, but I just remember having had this good conversation with Megan and just kind of felt more like a human again. I remember that feeling, but then going back into the dining room and seeing new people and also realizing where I was again. But I was also still in higher spirits because I had just talked to Megan, and so I think I was trying to be more social at that point.
Beth Demme (04:43):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:44):
And so, when he talked to me, I probably talked to him. But I don't know. Yeah, I don't know how that came up. But I still remember, it was like his calf, but it was like...
Beth Demme (04:55):
But the muscle was gone.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:58):
Yeah. And it's like I see it in my head. And it's almost like the way I see my book is like I see it as a movie in my head. And so, almost in my head it looks unreal, because also it would be unreal if it was in a movie because you'd have to CGI it to look like that, because I just was so...
Beth Demme (05:20):
Not the way a human calf looks.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:21):
Yeah. And because it has been so long, I almost am like, "Did that really happen? Or did I see this in a movie somewhere?" But I know it happened because it was something that I had written.
Beth Demme (05:34):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:34):
I wrote a lot of these things, when it first happened, I wrote that down.
Beth Demme (05:40):
You started keeping a journal while you were at the CRC.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:42):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (05:43):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:43):
And there was things that I wrote down that were just so jarring. But if I had started writing this book just a couple years ago and hadn't written those things, I don't think I would have remembered that.
Beth Demme (05:55):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:55):
I think I would have probably thought that was something I had seen in a movie, that it wasn't actually real life. Also, something that happened before that when we talked about Nicole's place, that actually was the original title of this entire book, was Nicole's Place. But my publisher didn't think it made sense because first of all, who is Nicole?
Beth Demme (06:14):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:14):
You'd have to really read the book to understand what that means.
Beth Demme (06:17):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:17):
But Nicole's place is basically a code word for mental hospital. It was essentially what we called it. I do like the title better now of my story. And also, my book originally was only going to be the mental hospital, and then it expanded into more as my life progressed and new things came up is kind of how it became more than just that story. So that also is why it didn't make sense to call it Nicole's Place, because like I said, it's broken into three sections. And so, this is just the first section, the first part of the story.
Beth Demme (06:48):
Yeah. And if you're just joining us just now at Chapter Six, you have to go back and listen to understand who Nicole is and why that's significant.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:56):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole was my roommate in the mental hospital, and she had some mental health issues.
Beth Demme (07:04):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:04):
And so, she did seem like that was a place that she needed to be, just on the surface from what I saw. And so, that's why we thought Nicole's place was a good name because she seemed like she did need to be there potentially, or a place like that probably would have been beneficial for her, so that's why we thought that was a good name for it.
Audio (07:24):
Right after dinner, all the patients lined up outside the nurses' drive-through style window. Slowly, one by one, patients picked up a cup full of pills, swallowed them, then showed the nurses they had done so. This moment seemed the craziest of all to me. If this was all a game, a very dangerous one since it involved human life, I decided to play and take the drugs.
(07:48):
As I got closer to the window, I felt like I was losing myself. Will I be completely zoned out after these drugs? Will I forget what's going on? Will I keep trying so hard? Will I not want to try anymore? And there I was. It was my turn. The nurse handed me a cup with two pills inside. I swallowed, and that was it.
(08:09):
As I lay in my bed with the drug slowly entering my bloodstream, I couldn't get to sleep. I thought about how strange it was that no one wanted to examine why I coped with self-injury. No one asked about my past and the feelings that brought it on. They focused so much on, "My roommate ate my food, so I cut my arm." What a dumbed down version of the story. No one was curious enough to dig deeper and help me discover why I was scarred.
(08:35):
I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to explain the feelings I have when my brain tells me to cope with self-injury. It's so hard to explain with simple words. It's something I just feel. I don't intellectualize it. But I try to think of an example. First, imagine that a typical person has an event come into their head. Maybe they learned they got into college or had a fight with a friend. These events would register in the brain and the brain would send these events to the heart to interpret the proper emotion to feel. The heart would tell the brain what to feel, and with the brain and heart aligned, that person would go through the proper emotion for each event.
(09:14):
In my case, imagine one of those same events occurred. My brain knows I need to feel something, so it sends it down to my heart. But my heart is not there. My organs are not there. My body is an empty shell, so the event just bounces around, desperate to get resolved.
(09:32):
After a while, my brain realizes it hasn't heard from my heart about what emotion to feel. Then my brain starts to go into overdrive, trying to figure out on its own what to do about the event. But my brain doesn't know how to determine the emotion on its own. What my brain does know is this. When I see a cut on the body, I instantly feel pain in that area; so my brain, knowing it needs to tell me how to feel about the event, tells me to cut my arm to feel emotion. So I cut, and I feel pain in that one area. For good and bad events, this is the process every time my brain needs me to feel. After my brain shut down my heart years ago, it never went back. But where did my heart go? Why is my body out of sync? Why has this misalignment happened?
Beth Demme (10:23):
This is super helpful to me. And I remember even reading this the first time that you let me read the book, and I remember going, "Oh, that's what NSSI is about, this disconnect between heart and brain. And knowing that you're feeling something but not knowing why, and wanting to be able to go, "Oh, this is why I feel." This is really helpful the way that you described this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:49):
Yeah. This was something that I had written in... Well, it's something I really had tried to figure out. Obviously, I figured this stuff out way after the hospital.
Beth Demme (10:59):
Right, right, right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:01):
And I really tried to figure out where to insert this in the book. As it's reading back, I'm remembering, oh, trying to bounce around where to put this and how to explain it, because it just... And then, I was like, "Is it weird putting it during the hospital?" But I realized it could be something... It was something I was processing and it just kind of worked. I thought it worked in this area.
(11:21):
But yeah, it was something I really wanted to try to dig in, because I know on the surface if you haven't experienced anything like this, these feelings, that it's probably almost impossible to understand what that's like. I have a friend that's transgender, and I just can never... I'll never fully understand what that is like, because I've never felt like I was in the wrong body. You know?
Beth Demme (11:48):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:48):
And so, I'm trying to be respectful, but also wanting to talk to my friend to try to understand what that must be like and what I could do to help and be supportive and things like that. So I think that was what I was trying to get across with this, was what it's like to deal with self-injury.
Beth Demme (12:10):
I know that as we go on, you're going to explore what caused the disconnect and what caused your heart to shut down, why your brain shut your heart down. But I wonder as we're sitting here today if you feel like heart and mind are both aligned or in sync or at work?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:33):
Yes. As we sit today, I would say definitely heart, brain, everything is aligned. But that's still fairly recent in my life, which is still kind of strange to think about. A lot of this recovery process happened in stages, and so it wasn't I learned everything right away. Especially after the hospital, I didn't learn anything. I was just a shell of a person. So it was a very long process, which is what the next chapters are about. But I think it's probably been, I want to say probably it's been maybe five years since this alignment and this realization came together. It was part of going through Celebrate Recovery, working with my psychologist, and also I had a sponsor that I met with fairly regularly that this went through. And then, writing this book was also part of kind of that process and realization of everything.
(13:31):
But I would say yes, I do feel aligned now, which is pretty cool. I don't feel like I have everything figured out. I don't feel like I'm a perfect functioning human in every respect at all, but it is interesting. I am in a new relationship. We've talked about that in the past. And I'm definitely seeing things that I would have done differently in the past, like unhealthy in the past. I'm doing healthy. We had a disagreement about something, and my natural instinct was to shut down and not talk.
Beth Demme (14:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:08):
But I didn't do that, and I continued to talk and worked through the discomfort and worked through all of that and used communication and didn't just let it shut me down, because I've done that. I've done shut down. I've done ignore. I'm not doing that anymore. And so, it's definitely interesting to be in a relationship when I am fully aware of my emotions and feel connected to them. I don't like emotions and I don't love communicating. I don't love all of those things, just to be clear. I need to be connected with my emotions, but I don't love it. But I know I need it because I've done the other thing and I'm not going back. So all connected, not perfect, but definitely aligned better than ever. How about you, Beth? Are you in alignment?
Beth Demme (15:03):
I think for the most part I'm aligned. I definitely have realized that when I get overwhelmed, I do shut down parts of myself, I would say for the sake of survival, but it's really just a coping mechanism.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:19):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (15:20):
And I have to be intentional about circling back and turning those parts back on.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:25):
Yes.
Beth Demme (15:26):
You know?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:26):
For sure.
Beth Demme (15:27):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:27):
I definitely know the feeling of that. And it's just so easy to just not circle back.
Beth Demme (15:32):
It is.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:33):
It's so easy to be like, "Oh, look at all these other things to occupy my time."
Beth Demme (15:37):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:37):
"I don't really have time to circle back."
Beth Demme (15:39):
I don't have time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:40):
"As you can see, I can't put it on the schedule because there's just so many other things." I know that feeling. And then, the realization of, "I have to circle back or it's not going to get better, and then it's going to just pile and pile and pile."
Beth Demme (15:55):
Yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:55):
Especially when you're at the bottom of the pile and you know there's not a lot stacked yet and you're like, "This is probably fine. It's probably fine because I don't have a stack of stuff I've got to deal with, so it's really not going to be a big deal." But then, you know you don't want to keep filing more stuff on that. You just want to deal with it so it's gone.
Beth Demme (16:13):
Yeah. What I also have to remind myself of is it's kind of surprising to me each time that it's never as hard as I think it's going to be, right? Because I build it up in my mind as it's going to be this really terribly emotionally draining, time-consuming thing. And really, it doesn't have to be. Because it's not easy and it's not comfortable, it doesn't just happen. I have to make myself do it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:44):
Yeah.
Audio (16:46):
As I drifted off to sleep, this next part was more dreamlike. Something big and unimaginable must have happened to me long ago that was too big for my heart. My brain took it in and sent it to my heart. My heart told it how to feel, but it was too much for my brain. It was too much for my brain to handle, and it told my heart, "No." It told my heart it would not feel that and it shut her down.
(17:12):
But even with my heart shut down, that childhood event still happened. That event is still inside, unresolved, deep inside my brain. It lives in my subconscious and it very much has an impact on everything I do. So how do I sync them back up? I have to learn what made my brain cut out my heart. What event caused this failed sync to happen?
(17:35):
My brain is not so easily tapped into. It's going to protect me as best it can. It's going to continue to distract me. It's going to continue to give me false readings of my emotions and how to handle them, but there is something bigger than my simple brain. God is always superior to me. He's the one that could open up my brain and show me what I need to know and ultimately realign my brain and heart. But at 20 years old, I was not ready to learn about what really happened in my childhood. I was unaware of the magnitude behind my self-injury coping method. At the time, I thought self-injury was the issue I needed to resolve. Little did I know that when I stopped focusing on self-injury, then the real healing would begin. But that would not come until years later.
Beth Demme (18:24):
It's so good. It's so helpful. It's such good clarity and such good self-awareness, and it's really helpful. I think for anybody who knows somebody who uses self-injury as a coping mechanism, it's really helpful to think about it this way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:39):
Yeah. And I feel like people still look at self-injury as the problem.
Beth Demme (18:45):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:45):
And it's not the problem.
Beth Demme (18:47):
Right. It's a coping mechanism.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:49):
Yeah. And people don't spend the time and the resources to really dig into that because it's hard, it's painful. And you have to find a medical professional that's even willing to explore all of that as well. A lot of this I explored on my own, but a lot of it I was able to do with my psychologist who was willing to have those conversations with me. But it takes time and it's not like a session or two. I've been seeing my psychologist since '06.
Beth Demme (19:19):
A while now.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:20):
A lot of years.
Beth Demme (19:20):
Yeah. 17 years.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:22):
A lot of years.
Beth Demme (19:24):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:24):
Yeah. I still go. I still have things. This stuff is not really as high priority, but there are still things that happen in my life that trigger something from here, from my past. But I usually recognize it pretty quick and kind of deal with it head on. But also, I was wondering if you were happy about the God part of that. Were you approval of that?
Beth Demme (19:51):
I'm happy about the whole thing. I agree that God is always superior to us.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:55):
Yeah. I thought you would like that part.
Beth Demme (19:55):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:55):
I was like, "Oh, Beth is going to love it."
Beth Demme (19:59):
Yeah. And I do think God is bigger than our simple brains.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:02):
Yep.
Beth Demme (20:03):
And can show us what we need to know and help us be realigned and be in sync, and journeys with us. Even when things are out of sync and really hard, I think God is with us.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:16):
So I got that part right.
Beth Demme (20:18):
Check.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:19):
Yes. Pastor approved.
Beth Demme (20:22):
Pastor approved, gold star.
Audio (20:26):
The next thing I knew, a nurse woke me up on Wednesday morning by poking and prodding for my blood and temperature. So far, the drugs didn't seem to have a noticeable effect. Around 10:00 AM, I was assigned a social worker. She was the first person who treated me kindly. Care and compassion flowed from her eyes. She didn't pass judgment, even after I shared how I ended up in the hospital. She said it would add positively to my case if I attended group session. She said I would also get to go outside in the session, which I really needed. I had been cooped up like a caged animal way too long.
(21:02):
I headed to group session in the craft room. Once there, I saw stuff everywhere. It looked like elementary students had been in the room. Supplies, paintings, and drawings were sprawled around. It smelled of paint and chemicals. About 20 patients and two workers occupied the room.
Beth Demme (21:19):
I was struck that you said that the social worker... First of all, I'm so glad she was kind. But then you said, "She said it would add positively to my case," like you're an inmate and you'd have to do this, oh, good behavior or time served. You're going to get a break on your sentence. And I get the sense that that's really how it felt, that you really felt like you were imprisoned.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:40):
Yeah. And the fact that I was assigned a social worker shows you that this is a whole thing. And also, when I got the social worker, I realized, I was like, "Wait. This is not something that's just going to happen overnight. I'm getting people assigned to me. You're telling me I need to go make nice." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Yeah. At this point, I was just like, "Yeah, whatever. I get to go outside." And I like to be in nature.
Beth Demme (22:09):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:10):
And I was inside in this cold building for so long and I just was like, "Okay." Yeah, and that's what it was. It was just like for them to write down on a piece of paper, "Went to group session," and then they can check that off and be like, "Okay, look, we did our job."
Beth Demme (22:22):
Right. Like, "Compliant."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:23):
Like, "We fixed her."
Beth Demme (22:24):
"She took medicine. She participated in group."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:27):
Yeah. Check.
Beth Demme (22:27):
Check, check.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:27):
Check. Yeah.
Beth Demme (22:28):
More gold stars.
Audio (22:31):
One patient was a very tall man I recognized from the day before. When he came to the hospital, he was talking to voices around him. It was pretty scary. He wasn't in control then, but today he looked better. "He must've been given drugs to mellow him out," I thought.
(22:47):
We all sat around a table with a worksheet titled It's Never Too Early or Late to Take 21 Steps to Aging Successfully. I started this painfully elementary exercise. One of the questions, "How often do you touch nature?" Our instructors asked us what it meant to "touch nature." I had already answered a few questions, so I didn't offer my suggestion. About an hour later, everyone had finished with the worksheet. I was about to pull my teeth out from boredom. I received a score of 98%, which was even higher than the instructor's score. "Fabulous. Can we go outside to touch nature now?" I thought.
(23:24):
We did go outside next, but I'm not sure you can even call it outside. We were escorted to a spa patio area surrounded on top and all sides with a chain link fence. I could barely see the outside. I certainly could not "touch nature." The patio contained a basketball hoop, a volleyball net, and a few game balls and bags. I played a game of scoop ball with one of the patients. If nothing else, at least the air was fresh.
(23:50):
After group session, I was really over it. I saw it on the plastic bench in front of the nurse's office to wait for any word on my release. I had taken the drugs and told my story. I had played nice with the group. Now was the time to get my life back. I waited for hours. I was told it would be today, but at that point, I had learned not to trust. Megan had said she would come pick me up as soon as she got the call.
(24:13):
As I waited, I read a Bible that the psychiatric unit pastor had given me. After a while, I looked up, and the dark tall man I recognized from today's group session appeared next to me. When I saw him yesterday, I had been scared because he had clearly been talking to people that were not there. In group, he had talked about voices telling him to do bad things like commit crimes and take drugs. As he approached me today, I tensed up. But I could see a change in him. I saw him and only him. He saw me reading and his face lit up. "Where did you get that Bible?" he asked kindly. "The pastor here gave it to me. I bet he'll give you one too. Just ask." I explained. He seemed excited and went to see how he could talk to the pastor.
(24:58):
As I continued to sit, I thought over the moment I had with that man and kicked myself for not giving him my Bible. Lost in my thoughts, I almost didn't understand when they gave me the good news. I was to be released! I expressed my gratitude calmly and waited for Megan. As I continued to wait, I saw the man walking and realized it was now or never. I walked over to him and handed him the Bible. I told him it was his now. He stared straight into my eyes with tears in his. He took my hands and said, "God bless you." I smiled, and we stood silent for a moment. Then I returned to my bench with tears in my eyes. That was a real human moment I will never forget.
(25:42):
Around 5:00 PM Wednesday, I was released. I signed the forms and received my phone and wallet back. My roommate Megan showed up and I was free in the world again. It was strange to think how quickly my freedom had been taken away. I just wanted the past four days washed away from my memory as if it never happened. I wanted to move forward again. Megan took me to Wendy's where I got a sandwich, Frosty with treats, and a salad. We headed back to our dorm. That was it. It was all over, or so I thought.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:14):
So having lived this, reading this, the end of this feels really rushed to me, which kind of was the intention of it. The intention was kind of for it to feel rushed in the sense of I had all this time, and then instantly I'm like, "It's time to go." And I was like, "What?" And then it's all over.
(26:35):
But actually, when we were outside, I didn't even have this in the book because it didn't really make sense, but as we were outside, there was a group of maybe social work students or students that were in college that were observing us and were supposed to play with us. And so, when I said I was playing scoop ball and stuff, there was students talking and observing us, which was the weirdest thing because I was a college student. And so, I'm seeing these people that are me, but I'm in this facility and they're doing what I was doing just a couple days before. And it was this weirdest thing, and I'm like, "They're observing us, but I'm also talking to them." It was just such a strange place to be.
Beth Demme (27:23):
Yeah. Made stranger by the fact that you didn't belong there in the position you were in, so it's like...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:30):
But they didn't know that.
Beth Demme (27:31):
They didn't know that, no.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:32):
Exactly, and so they just see, I don't know what. And it would be interesting actually to hear their thoughts of me and anyone during this time what they thought of me or my situation, because I think everyone thought I was supposed to be there because I was there. No one makes mistakes. Why would someone wrongfully be put in here?
(27:52):
But I definitely wanted to get this part in about the man that I had observed the day before and after he got the drugs, how he was acting like he was doing better. Because that was definitely a profound moment for me. I remember that, having that human moment with him and giving him the Bible and just realizing the connection there.
Beth Demme (28:12):
You went from this very dehumanized moment being outside. And I know that you said you were playing scoop ball and that was nice or whatever, but the way you describe it with the chain link being not only on the sides, but even being over you, that sense of a cage and being caged in or being... I don't know. Then the idea of college students being there to observe you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:34):
Observe, yeah, yeah.
Beth Demme (28:34):
Yeah. It makes that feeling even stronger. And then, in the midst of that, or on the heels of that, to be able to have this really human moment one-on-one with somebody who it sounds like, and I think we talked about this before, this was not a place where you belonged. But it might have been a place where other people got some help that they needed, and maybe this man was one of those folks to kind of get his voices under control.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:02):
Well, I think his situation, which is kind of... I don't know his specifically, but I did come to learn a lot of situations where people didn't have money for their medications. He probably was schizophrenic and he didn't have money for his medications. And so, he would be on the streets, not have money for his medication, and then he would do kind of outlandish things, and then he would be sent to this facility. He'd get on the meds, he'd be doing better, and then it was a cycle.
Beth Demme (29:31):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:32):
And so, it was a cycle because... And this just goes to show why we need to be able to provide medication for people that need it.
Beth Demme (29:40):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:40):
Because the amount of money it would cost to just pay for his meds in the real world versus having him go through a facility like this every time.
Beth Demme (29:49):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:50):
And it sounded like there was... And Nicole, she had been there multiple times. And so, it sounds like there were people that would just continuously cycle through here because the system wasn't really set up for success for you to be able to get the help you need and then go and live life. It was like, get the help you need, go, now you need more help, go back, now you need more help, go back.
Beth Demme (30:12):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:12):
And there was no exit plan to help you succeed once you're out.
Beth Demme (30:16):
Right. Like temporary stabilizing measures over and over again, and that's no quality of life.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:22):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (30:22):
You can't have any quality of life when you're in that situation, I think.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:25):
Well, and this is something that happens a lot in the prison system, is people are just treated like dirt in prison, aren't actually given resources to help them get better when they're in the real world. Then they do something, get back in prison, and it's like this continuous cycle. So as much as this was not prison, you can see some similarities. It's almost a prison of your own mind.
(30:52):
But even the last line, "It was over." Just hearing that line, I feel a sense of peace with that "And it was over." Even though I know it wasn't over, but I literally feel like, "Oh, good. We're done with the hospital. We're done with the hospital." Just me now sitting here, even though it's been how many years, but I'm like, "Oh, yes, I'm back home."
(31:15):
And I remember that feeling of, "I can breathe now." And going to Wendy's, which I never went to Wendy's, but it was like... And they had this... This was years ago, but they had a sandwich. They don't have them anymore, but it was actual sandwich, like a turkey sandwich or something.
Beth Demme (31:33):
Oh, not just a burger?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:33):
It was really good. Yeah, it was really good. It was an actual sandwich. And I never really got Frostys that much, but I...
Beth Demme (31:40):
You treated yourself. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:42):
Well, no. I don't love ice cream, and so that's why I don't usually get it. But I do like ice cream if it's loaded with treats.
Beth Demme (31:49):
Okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:49):
If it's more the toppings than the ice cream, then I'm good with it.
Beth Demme (31:52):
You're in it for the toppings. I get it. I get it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:54):
Yeah. So it's just the detail of that, I was just like, "Yeah, okay. Sounds right, yeah."
Beth Demme (32:00):
It's interesting how you say, "I just wanted the past four days washed away from my memory as if they never happened." That's an interesting comment after what we've been talking about, about how sometimes we do want to just live in denial or we want to just pretend like we don't have issues that we need to work on or whatever. "It would be so much easier if I just never thought about this again," and yet that's not how our minds work.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:26):
That's not how our minds and our bodies work.
Beth Demme (32:28):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:28):
Because it doesn't just go away. I know. And that's something so... Four days, in a sense, seems like nothing. It's like, "I could do anything for four days."
Beth Demme (32:38):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:38):
"What do you mean?" I can read this and I can understand what another person could think, like, "It was four days of your life."
Beth Demme (32:45):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:45):
"Get the freak over it." I can understand that. But as we'll learn in the next chapters, it was five years of my life that I was completely out of touch with reality and didn't realize that every day I was getting more depressed and more depressed because of those four days, because of four days. Four days affected the next five years of my life in a way that I couldn't even comprehend.
Beth Demme (33:11):
So when you had that thought of, "Oh, I can give him my Bible. I don't actually need to keep this." And you went over and you had that moment with him, that real human moment, have there been other times in your life where that's happened? Because I can think of... I was trying to think of when in my life it's happened, and there have been a couple of times when people were... Actually, when people are begging on the side of the street, but I'm able to stop and have a moment of conversation and recognize their humanity. And those moments definitely have stayed with me, so I feel like I can relate to this experience that you had with him, where in a very dehumanized situation, you tapped into your humanity and recognized his humanity.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:01):
And there was little moments. There were other moments that happened in the hospital like talking to people and things like that.
Beth Demme (34:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's so easy for us to forget that, to forget the humanity of other folks. And I think there's a lot about how our culture works that causes us or gives us permission to dehumanize each other.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:23):
Mm-hmm.
Beth Demme (34:23):
And so, I do think that the fact that you brought up this human moment is really important. The theology of it for me would be the image of God is in every person. And so, sometimes it is maybe hard for me to find. It doesn't mean it's not there. So that just makes the dehumanization is also such an affront to my core beliefs.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:53):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (34:53):
And yet, I think that the church is pretty good at doing it. I think the church tends to dehumanize people, and people in the church tend to dehumanize people. And that's such a puzzle to me. I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:04):
And I think people use the church, use God's name, to dehumanize people.
Beth Demme (35:10):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:11):
And I think we're seeing that in the state of Florida right now.
Beth Demme (35:14):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:14):
What's happening with our government and what's happening in schools, and what's happening just to anyone that is different in any way, shape, or form.
Beth Demme (35:22):
Yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:23):
And what's happening. I personally am very distraught about living in Florida right now and what ramifications this is going to have for years and years and years and years to come to our economy and to our way of life. But that's all I've ever known is living in Florida.
Beth Demme (35:42):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:43):
But it gives me pause to, "Do I want to live here?"
Beth Demme (35:46):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:46):
"Do I want to continue to live here, even though this is the only life I've ever known?"
Beth Demme (35:50):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:50):
And I don't want to leave, but am I going to have to leave because of what's happening?
Beth Demme (35:56):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:56):
Just because it's...
Beth Demme (35:57):
The direction that things are going. You mentioned having a friend who's transgender, and somebody asked me about it the other day actually at church, which I appreciate. I like to have these conversations in the context of church. But the point that I was trying to make with them is, think about what a small percentage of humanity is born transgender. And then, ask yourself the critical question of, "Why are they being picked on?" Right? And part of the reason they're getting picked on is because it's a very small group of people. And so, it's easy to... They don't have any power because they're such a small group of people. So it's easy to target them and to dehumanize them. And I just really lament all the ways that the church is involved in that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:52):
And the word you just said is people.
Beth Demme (36:54):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:55):
They are people.
Beth Demme (36:55):
People.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:57):
We are all people.
Beth Demme (36:58):
Yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:58):
Guess what? We all have that in common. We are people.
Beth Demme (37:01):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:01):
And why do we have to point fingers at, "Oh, I don't like this thing about you. I don't like this thing about you. Oh, you're wrong about this." You don't know me. You don't know what's right or wrong for me. You point that finger at yourself. You do you, I'll do me, and let's all be people. And this world is hard enough. Living is hard enough, everyday living is hard enough, and then you try to actively destroy my life and destroy other people's lives? That's not okay.
Beth Demme (37:33):
It's not okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:34):
We're people. Just be people together. No one's coming for you. No one is coming for your white privilege. You got that. That's right there. Enjoy it. I know you are. Stop trying to throw your junk on me.
Beth Demme (37:48):
And I wonder how many of these people who you met in the hospital, Nicole, or this man who you gave the Bible to, how much of their existence involved them being dehumanized, and how much of what led them to be the people they are really involved them being mistreated or abused by someone who was also dehumanized. You know what I mean? It's such a vicious cycle.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:18):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (38:19):
And so, that's the other thing, too. People are like, "Well, there's so much more of it now." And it's like, "Well, it's cyclical. And hurting people hurt people. And so yes, we have a mental health crisis because we haven't dealt with it well."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:34):
We haven't.
Beth Demme (38:35):
And we haven't taken this pause to really humanize people who are humans. But I'm glad you got out of the CRC. That was a good ending to the chapter. Oh, good. Those four days are over.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:53):
Now back to college, also, by the way.
Beth Demme (38:56):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:57):
Back into college the next day.
Beth Demme (38:59):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:00):
Because this was a Wednesday.
Beth Demme (39:02):
Oh, my word.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:02):
So I went to college on Thursday.
Beth Demme (39:04):
Yeah. And back to the roommates.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:06):
Exact same roommates.
Beth Demme (39:07):
The same roommates.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:07):
Yes.
Beth Demme (39:07):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:08):
That didn't change.
Beth Demme (39:09):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:09):
So stay tuned for Chapter Seven. It gets something... Good? Bad? You'll have to wait and see.
Beth Demme (39:18):
Well, Chapter Seven is called Aftermath, so there is that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:22):
Well, spoiler alert.
(39:28):
At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website.
Beth Demme (39:38):
Number one, have you had an experience where you were dehumanized? Number two, can you think of a time when you had what Steph called a real human moment? Number three, reflect on the connection between your heart and brain. Are they in sync? And number four, think about your own coping mechanisms. Are there any that you might need to change?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:05):
The Discovering Our Scars Podcast is produced by Beth Demme and Stephanie Kostopoulos. Thanks for joining us.
