Discovering Our Scars
Discovering Our Scars
Discovering My Scars: Chapter 11 "Faith"
Steph and Beth continue to listen to the audiobook version of Steph’s memoir, Discovering My Scars, and discuss what is revealed in chapter 11.
At the end of the episode, Steph and Beth offer you these Questions for Reflection:
(1) Have you had the experience of knowing only the next right step? What was that like?
(2) Reflect on the transitions in your life. What is it like when a transition isn’t attached to a life event like graduating from school?
(3) Have you ever had a God-moment (or sense of knowing) like Steph had on the beach?
(4) What does having faith mean to you?
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Steph: https://www.stephaniekostopoulos.com
Beth: http://bethdemme.com
Welcome to the Discover Our Scars Podcast.
Steph:Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other. I'm Steph and I'm Beth. I've been in recovery for 17 years and am the author of Discover my Scars, my memoir about what's done in the darkness eventually comes to light.
Beth:I'm a lawyer turned pastor, who's all about self-awareness and emotional health, because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
Steph:Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was only named to came to mind as co-host.
Beth:I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years.
Steph:We value honest conversations and we hope you do too.
Beth:On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled Discovering my Scars, Chapter 11.
Steph:And the show, will close with questions for reflection. Where we will invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life.
Beth:So we're diving back into your memoir Discovering my Scars. As we've already said, this is going to be chapter 11. So we're going to use the audio book version of it and we're going to listen to it, and then we're going to pause and ask and have other discussions about it, and sometimes I ask you questions when we do this and sometimes other information comes to mind that you want to share. So, yeah, we've done it 10 times, let's do it again.
Steph:Yes, let's get into it. This is chapter 11, Faith, which you'll hear me say in just a second on the auto recording as well.
Steph:So, just so you know, this is me in live, real life. Then we're going to flip a page and that will be me recorded. Part three recovery. Chapter 11, faith. Even if you're not a fan of Apple, you know the name Steve Jobs. Steve was the CEO of Apple when I was hired in 2007, the year of the first iPhone. He changed the way we work, communicate and use technology in so many ways. I feel honored to work for him, even in a small way.
Steph:When I became a creative, I was sent to Cupertino, california, home to Apple's headquarters. It awed me. I saw huge, amazing buildings where the products I loved were designed, and Steve was so close. As we went through training, we were told not to seek out Steve and not to react if we saw him. I had no problem with these roles, but I was still vocal to my training group about how cool it would be to see Steve.
Steph:Then it happened. I was having lunch at Cafe Mac, the coolest and best food court I had ever dined in. The room seemed to get a little quiet. The friend I was talking to looked at me and said don't turn around, be cool. I knew it had to be Steve. Now, I was cool people. I really was. Slowly and casually, I looked over my shoulder and watched as the black turtleneck to Steve walk to his office with a colleague. They were just walking and talking casually to each other. My eyes stayed on him the whole time. I wondered what they were talking about A new product? A new update? Maybe about what they had for lunch? It was a big moment for me. I didn't need to talk to Steve, I didn't need to walk next to him. Being in his presence just that one time was enough. I do remember thinking, wow, he looks a lot thinner in person. This was just two years before Steve passed away from cancer.
Steph:After he died, his biography by Walter Isaacson was released. I bought it on my iPad and read it cover to cover. By the middle of the book I thought who's this crazy arrogant man I'm reading about? Oh wait, it's Steve Freakin Jobs. I enjoyed learning his life story and understanding the man more than ever before, but how he created Apple the ins and outs of his business is not what stayed with me. At the end of the book he talked about his one regret. It wasn't the products he didn't release and it wasn't leaving the company in the 90s and coming back, his biggest regret was not spending enough time with his family. The most successful man I've ever seen in my lifetime regretted that his kids did not know him. That stuck with me.
Steph:After reading his book, my definition of success changed. Success was no longer about working all the hours of the day or making all the money, but about spending time with my family. Sometimes on my work breaks, I would walk around the mall and call my mom. In these calls, she told me about the many meals she, my dad, brother, sister-in-law and nephew all shared together. I would hear of the weekends when they had just hung out, not doing much, but doing it together. I longed to be a part of the nothing and everything they did together.
Steph:The burden of being four hours away from my family started to take a toll. My second nephew was set to be born right before Christmas 2012. I smiled nonstop when my store leader, marco, gave me the time off to be in Tallahassee for the birth. But with all my planning, you can't really plan a natural birth. And of course, he was born a week late. He came into this world in the early morning of the day I needed to go back to Orlando. I saw him for about 20 minutes before I had to drive away. It pained me so much to leave him so soon. When I wasn't with my two nephews, my heart felt like a slinky One part in Tallahassee and one in Orlando. When I was in Orlando, it constantly wanted to slinky back to Tallahassee, to be all in one piece. I felt whole in Tallahassee, but not in Orlando.
Steph:Back at Apple after the birth, I did my job, but my heart was not into the daily grind anymore. I had reached the five year mark working for Apple a few months before and the job had started to feel stale. I needed to clear my head. So Jason suggested we go to one of my favorite places the beach at night. On the night of January 1st 2013, we headed to Cocoa Beach, about 45 minutes from our apartments. When we arrived, it was perfect the surface calm and the air was crisp, cool and peaceful. Jason walked a few paces behind me so I could walk alone on the wet sand.
Beth:All right, so I wanted to have you pause it there, because that's pretty cool that you saw Steve Jobs in person. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Also, I don't really believe you when you say I was cool people I really was, that you were slow and casual and how you turned around. I'm not sure I believe you. I think maybe in your own mind you were slow and casual and if I saw it in real life you were like the Tasmanian devil, like whipping around as fast as you could to see him.
Steph:I didn't run up to him or anything, so I was cool. In that sense. I mean, I think that counts as being cool. I mean, how many people can say they've seen Steve Jobs in real life? I mean, he's been dead over. I can't remember what year he passed, I think it was 09. So I mean, it's been a long time. Yeah, I mean.
Beth:I can't say that I've ever seen yeah.
Steph:I mean I didn't realize, like, how soon he was gonna pass after that. So you know, that was. I mean he created this whole thing Like obviously it's more complicated than that.
Beth:Like there's two.
Steph:Steve's that were really involved. Steve was, and Jobs was really more the businessman, the marketing man, which which is necessary, really everything. Yeah, you could have the best product in the world, but if no one knows about it, there you go. Shark Tank tells us that, but yeah, so it was definitely like a cool thing. But I've also seen Was Steve Was who actually created the hardware of the Apple computer. He came to Tallahassee a couple years ago to do a talk and I got to see him and that was so cool, like so I have seen both Steve's in my lifetime, so that's pretty cool.
Beth:I mean, I see a special Steve every day.
Steph:You see a pretty cool Steve. Yeah, you have a pretty cool Steve. I see my husband Steve every day. Do you call him?
Beth:Steve. No, I call him Steven I call him Steven.
Beth:So I wanna ask you something else, but you don't have to leave this in because I don't know, like I don't wanna create trouble. In this excerpt that we just listened to, you know, you talk about the importance of being with family and let me just say like it makes sense to me that Steve Jobs' biggest regret was not spending more time with his family. Like there's an expression about how nobody ever puts on their tombstone. You know, wish I had worked more, like that's not a thing, but you and your brother have not been especially close, but you're very attached to his children, which I think is kind of interesting.
Steph:What do you find interesting about it? That I have a closer relationship with my siblings than my sibling?
Beth:Yeah, yeah, because I think what I have observed other times is like people who are kind of not close to their siblings kind of go, are not usually that close to the siblings' children either, because it's like, well, I don't really wanna, I don't really wanna hang out with my sibling, but if I hang out with my siblings' kids, I'm gonna hang out with my sibling. You know what I mean. So it's like that thing.
Steph:Yeah, I do see what you're saying because yeah, that's definitely like a thing that goes along usually. Yeah, I don't know, I do feel very close to my nimblings and I like doing life with them. Which is what was cool when we lived close is just doing stuff together, having meals together, hanging out, not having to do anything fancy, just like doing life.
Beth:But I mean from the moment each of them was born, they were very important to you, which I think is beautiful, absolutely beautiful. It's just interesting to me that comes from a place other than being close to a sibling.
Steph:And I do. Growing up I was never close to my aunts and uncles and it was just kind of like this is what you have to do, because this is family. You see them one point, two times a year and stuff like that. But and I remember that and I wanted to be different from my nimblings, I wanted to be like an involved aunt and I wanted them to like wanna spend time with me, or if they don't wanna spend time with me, that's totally fine. I wanted to like make it not like this is something you have to do. I just wanted to be like more of a presence in their life than just like this like obligation thing.
Steph:So I think that concept came from how I was raised and I was like I want not necessarily how I was raised, just like how it was because we weren't close to you weren't geographically close, yeah, and so that kind of just was. So I knew I wanted to be more of a presence and I don't know, they're just great kids and maybe the fact that I never wanted to have kids really and never like had a desire, I think a lot of times most of my aunts and uncles have kids and so they're involved with their kids and so, and then I have an aunt and uncle that don't have kids but always wanted kids. So I was never really close to them either. So maybe they didn't really wanna get close to us because they were upset about not having kids, I don't know. So maybe that's why I feel close to them, because I never wanted my own kids and I wanted to be present in their life. So maybe that's kinda how it came about.
Beth:Cause you even say in the book and we just heard it when I wasn't with my two nephews my heart felt like a slinky, one part in Tallahassee and one in Orlando. So again, that attachment to them was really strong and really beautiful from the beginning.
Steph:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was just kind of like an instant thing and it wasn't any like, it wasn't something that I was like.
Beth:Yeah, it wasn't a conscious thing, it just kind of happened yeah.
Steph:You know, since this time we're getting into it, I'm gonna be moving closer to them in the book, but since this time in real life, they have moved to Orlando and I'm still in Tallahassee. So we have this like we swapped. We swapped Also, your niece was born after this and I have an niece. Yeah, so I have three, three niblings. But it's not the exact same feeling as it was back then of like, oh, like I miss them, because I do see them fairly often. Um, possibly once a month I see them, not like like if you were to like average it out, but usually they stay with us over the summer and like, so I do get like a good time with them and I'm about to see them.
Steph:In a week we're going to Orlando. So, like we, we travel fairly often. As I walked, I talked to God about my life and where I was headed, I asked for his guidance and direction. There was darkness all around me. The only light coming from the bright moon was reflected in the water. It felt like God was walking with me, holding my hand down the beach, no longer walking on sand. It felt like we were walking on water together.
Beth:Okay, I'll just stop you again, because it's like that poem about the footprints, about how there there were two sets of footprints and then there were one and it was like God, where did you go? And then God's like hey, I was carrying you. It's like you had a moment like that.
Steph:I did yeah, and I know that poem. That's like a very like. Every Christian has that poem. I know what? Can I just tell you that?
Beth:a couple of weeks ago, hannah, who's my daughter, who's been on the podcast, she texted it to me like she had just discovered it. It was precious, it was absolutely precious. I was like, oh, what a neat poem. I was like, by the way, your grandparents had that hanging on the wall when I was a kid. It's been around a bit.
Steph:It's cute. It's cute when people discover things. But you know, I don't know if I had knew that poem, then, like, I feel like probably did, like it's such a like cliche, like been around. In the moment you discovered you're like, oh my gosh, wow. And then the moment you discovered again and again you're like, oh, okay, I mean it's so cool, but yeah, it's like it's been around.
Beth:Yeah, I didn't mean to make light of a moment, but it really did make me think of that poem. All right, so let's go back to look, you're walking on the beach with God as you do.
Steph:In that moment I had no words, I just listened. My mind went blank and I only heard his voice. He told me it was time to leave Apple and that I had done good and enough there. It was time for me to leave my job. That much was clear. But God wouldn't tell me what job I was to take next. He made it clear that it would be revealed later. All I had to do was follow his path. God knew my concerns. He knew my hesitations, without me expressing them. After the walk, jason and I got into the car, but I didn't tell him what had just happened. It was too intense and personal to say. In that moment, with mustard seed faith, I scheduled time with my store leader, marco, to tell him I was leaving.
Steph:Over my years with Apple, marco had become a great mentor to me. He had given me the month off to take care of my mental health, had helped me develop leadership skills and Encouraged me every chance he could, and over the summer he had delivered some validating news. Every year, while I was at Apple, employees would receive a 2 to 5% Raise based on achievements during the year. I had pretty much received a 3% raise each year, but in the summer of 2012, things had changed. Normally, my direct superior would give me the news about my race, but that summer, marco had wanted to meet with me instead. In the meeting, he told me my performance have blown him away. He also told me I was the first person who would learn about their raise and that he wanted to share it with me Personally because it was the highest in the store. After hearing that, I got a little nervous and excited about what he might say next. He told me he had looked into my salary and the salary of others in my same position. Based on his review, he wanted to bring my pay up substantially. Then he gave me the news I would be getting a 25% raise Instantly. That number empowered me. The raise spoke louder than words. It said you are doing a great job, you are noticed, you are valued. Now, here I was just a few months later, making more money than I ever had before, and I was preparing to quit a great job. It was a huge move, but with God's direction, I was determined to do it.
Steph:The day came to meet with Marco. I was so nervous I took a 15 minute break right before the meeting to get myself together. During my break I checked the email on my phone and read a message from my mom. It said the director of technology ministry position had just opened up at my hometown church. Mom didn't know the details but she had talked to the pastor in charge. The pastor knew me from high school and I had interned with the former director of technology ministries back then. Given my history, he was very interested in having me apply. My heart pounded hard than harder. This was it. This was the next step. I just knew it. I put my phone away, went to meet with Marco and I quit. I gave him a month's notice so I could finish up any projects and get the new Lee Creative set up for success. We set my last day in the store as February 1st. Marco was very sad to see me go and he did ask if he could do anything to make me stay. But he understood why I wanted to be closer to family and respected my decision.
Steph:As January progressed I had two phone interviews for the director of technology ministries position, but I never told the church I had already left my job. The interviews went really well and I knew a few people on the hiring committee. My last day in the Apple store arrived, although I was to be paid my official last work check on February 9th. During the first week of February I rented a moving truck and packed up my Orlando apartment. I had an in-person interview slash campus visit for the director position in Tallahassee. I heard the job had come down to me and a 55 year old man who had a load more experience than I did. But that didn't stop me. Deep down I knew the job was mine. I drove the moving truck to my parents house and unloaded it. I planned on starting to look for a house in the next week, as I had been wanting to own my own home for some time. The next day I headed to the church for my campus visit. I dined with staff members, had a short informal interview with the hiring pastor and got the job on February 9th.
Steph:In that moment the power of God was not lost on me. I realized that my last official day with Apple was the same day that Calarn United Methodist Church. Calarn hired me. My new job and new life began. I could see my family practically every day and I did. I found the perfect three bedroom and two bath house. It was rough around the edges, but I could see its potential. It was rough around the edges, but I could see its potential. I became a first-time homeowner in May 2013. Everything felt right. The pieces were falling into place and that's the house we sit in today.
Beth:Here we are. I bet when you bought it oh, I wonder, when you bought it Did you think this would be a podcast studio?
Steph:This was a guest room. Yeah, so no.
Beth:I can be it still is.
Steph:Yeah, the couches, but it's a it's a lot of things. Yeah, it's bursting at the seams with. That's what it is.
Beth:It's very multi-purpose and very comfortable actually I like this room.
Beth:That's nice. So I really relate to the moment you had with God on the beach where God was like this chapter is over, you know, your season at Apple is over. That's what you need to know right now. Yeah right, you don't need to know the next thing or the next five things, just take this next step. I relate to that because I feel like that's often how it is with me and God, like that if I knew the next Five steps, I would totally get ahead of myself. Right, I have come to peace with. Usually I'm only gonna know the next right thing to do. Just do the next right thing and then More will. Then I'll understand better. You know what to do after that.
Steph:Yeah, that's actually a. It's like a song or theme within the frozen 2 movie is the next right thing, and and I still haven't seen that frozen to well, both frozen and frozen 2 are great, but I actually like frozen 2 more. There's kind of a really like very Low moment for the on a character where she's like just has to like put one foot in front of the other and that's like all she can do and it's um. Yeah, I think there's some really good moments in that movie, but anyways, yeah, I agree, like there's definitely times where I like get one step but don't know like the 10 steps after. And I've kind of come to peace with that.
Steph:Like you know, and a lot of things, the older I get, I realize it's feelings and I have to trust those feelings. It's like this feeling is telling me this, this feeling is telling me that, and it's just it's hard. I also feel like it's harder as life gets progresses, because I feel like you have natural endings when you're younger in life, like you have. Like I'm graduating high school, I'm graduating college, you know I'm starting my first job, I'm, you know, getting my first house. You know you have these like natural kind of like places, but then, as you get older, it becomes more muddy and you can easily just continue doing what you're doing for a very long time, because there's no natural the next thing?
Beth:Yeah, and maybe that's even more true when you are self-employed, because you don't have an annual review where someone is, you know, marking time for you and you don't have someone saying oh you know, you've got two weeks of vacation, use it or lose it. You really are, you really are on your own to discern what the next steps are and to sustain everything. So I think time does feel different. Time progresses differently as we get older, but also I think that that time moves differently when you're self-employed.
Steph:Yeah, for sure. So have you ever done something like I did here, where I just like quit a job and you didn't know what you were doing next? You just knew that you were done with that job, Not in a like I'm quit way, but just like in a I know this is over and that I don't know what's next.
Beth:I've definitely never quit a job without knowing what was next. I've always needed a reason, you know, to move on. So I had to know what was next to know, and you did. I mean, you knew that coming to Tallahassee to be closer to your family was the right thing, was the next thing. I think for me it's more that I've started things without really knowing beyond the next step. You know like I agreed to be an interim director of children's ministry at the same church at Calarn, but I was really adamant that it had to be on an interim basis, that I knew that wasn't what I was supposed to do longterm, but it was what I was supposed to do, right then.
Steph:How long were you interim?
Beth:Just a school year, so just nine months, which was Really which was much longer than what I had agreed to.
Steph:It was only nine months, and that's where we met.
Beth:Yes.
Steph:I thought we worked together the whole time. No what in the world? Oh, because then-. But then I did volunteer for you, you volunteered for me. That's what it was Okay.
Beth:Because when I wasn't working there, then I could volunteer on Sunday mornings, and so I volunteered in the sound booth. The sound booth, okay.
Steph:So that's why I feel like we worked together a lot, because you were working there as the director of children's ministry at the beginning and then you were done with that, but then you volunteered for tech and then you and I got to hang out a bunch during that. Okay, that's why I feel like we worked together, because we did in like, yeah, different ways, different ways, yeah, okay. So what was the next thing after the interim director that you did?
Beth:Well, while I was the interim director, I brought back a program called Bible Basics. We would give Bibles to third graders and I created my own curriculum and taught it and really liked doing that. And then one of the parents came to me and said this is embarrassing, but can you do a Bible Basics for adults? And I was like, yes, I can, let's do that. And at the same time I knew from other things that were happening in the church that nobody was going to commit to like a six-week study or a six-month study. I don't know how we got through our step study, but because people, that was not a thing that people were committing to, and so I was like I'm going to do it as a one off workshop. So that's when I created Bible 100, which is where I kind of do an overview of the Bible in 100 minutes or less. It's never or less, though. In fact I just did it a couple of weeks ago and it took me 120 minutes.
Steph:Oh no, did you have your timer going?
Beth:You're like really, fast or is the end? Yeah, I have my timer going and then I just turned it off and then at the end somebody was like that was a really good Bible 120. Oh, my gosh, sassy, sassy. I know. I was like well, you know, I had to add some extra stories and that added some time.
Steph:Did people ask questions that you could blame it on that? No, no, it could be like it was all me, you were the reason. I was the reason for the video of it, because, because you edited it yeah.
Steph:I worked for the production company that did editing, for the company that produced it. Yeah, yeah. So I'm remembering a story involving your husband and because there was like places where you could volunteer within the church and he worked on a committee that was part of getting transitioning a new pastor into the church and I think, for some reason, like I was like making a video about the new pastor but no one was supposed to know about him yet, so it was just me and your husband and this new pastor, and maybe you were there. Yeah, I think you were there too. I was like in the back of the church, like I just remember it specifically because I was in the back of the church and I had just started doing Mother of our projects, like a couple of weeks before or something. I had just started like posting these videos of like doing projects around the house with my mom.
Steph:And I remember Stephen, your husband. I remember him being like so. So what is this? What is this video stuff you're doing? And I was like, oh, you know, just for fun.
Steph:He's like are you going to quit and do this full time? I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, this isn't my job. What do you know? No, no, no, no, oh, my goodness. And he was like, oh, okay, but I just remember that so distinctively because you know that was so foreign, that concept was such a foreign concept to me, like I couldn't even imagine like doing that full time and like not having a standard nine to five job. And I was like, oh, I could never do that.
Steph:And you were doing that, like you were doing this online content, you had done Bible 100. Like you were kind of, and you were doing speaking events, like you were doing that. And I remember like thinking like I could never do that, like just have like my own job and all that stuff, like. But he was the first person that like put that into my head of like, but it totally made me think the opposite. Like, no, I am not. But then it was six months later. Yeah, I freaking quit that job and I went full time, and so he was right, he was right, he was right. He basically just wasn't right on the timing. I wasn't quitting that day. But just six months later I was, I was there, I quit, um, so I don't know that just made me think of like him asking me that and I was just like what?
Beth:Yeah, that's not at all.
Steph:Yeah, so I don't think that's the reason why, because a white man suggested it. I don't think that's why let's not give him too much power. But uh, it was the first time to like, really like, just make me like think, like, no, no, no, I could never, right. So this is just a side hustle.
Beth:This is just a hop.
Steph:Yeah, this is just, you know, for fun, we're just doing this, yeah.
Beth:You were far more successful as an online content creator than I ever was. You had good content. I had good content. It was not, um, I never was good at monetizing it. Well, that's cool. That's that, that my Steve, my Steven was a small part of your story, or that you even have that memory. That's cool, I like that.
Steph:I really liked that idea of like the next right thing, of knowing the next right thing but not knowing knowing like the next 10 right things. And I always struggle like when? When people are like what is your 10 year plan?
Beth:What is your next 10 year plan you?
Steph:look like I never have a good answer for that, because I am somebody that really tries to live in every day and I don't. I have no idea what's going to look like in 10 years. Like I just learned last year that I'm a lesbian. Like that's huge. Like I, if you had to, if I had had had a 10 year plan, that wouldn't have been in it. Like well, this year, learn your own lesbian. Like you know, there's just so many things that I have, no, I can't see the future of, and so if I was to make a 10 year plan, I feel like it would just box me in so much to something that I don't even know, like what that's going to look like. So, yeah, I like that concept of like the next right thing, cause, as we're, you know, reading this chapter, like it's cool to kind of see, like remember this period of my life, but I'm almost in another transition period of, like you know, 10 years later, what does that next transition look like? And all I know is the next right thing.
Beth:Right and and it's okay to lean into the next right thing and trust that after that you'll know the next right thing Exactly.
Steph:So, beth, as we're talking about the next right thing, something that me and you have talked about recently is that, after we have finished going through every chapter of the book, that we are going to transition out of the podcast. We have made that decision, which it doesn't come lightly. This is something that's been part of our lives for five years. It'll be five years and we started 2019,. May 31st was our first date and that will be our end date, just in 2024.
Beth:Yeah, from May 31st 2019 to May 31st 2024.
Steph:Yeah, which just seems like a pretty little bow to have on there, and we've already planned the next, all the next episodes. We have a lot of good stuff coming up and finishing up the book, so there's definitely more content to come.
Beth:Yeah, and we're going to end well, we're not just forgetting about this project or just abandoning it. No, we're going to end well, I think we always do things with intention.
Steph:It's not just like and it's done, we're like. There's intention behind it.
Beth:Yeah, so we're discerning the next right step.
Steph:Yes, yeah, at the end of each episode we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find the written in the description.
Beth:Number one have you had the experience of knowing only the next right step? What was that like? Number two Reflect on the transitions in your life. What is it like when a transition isn't attached to a life event, like graduating from school? Number three have you ever had a God moment or a sense of knowing like Steph had on the beach? And number four what does having faith mean to you?
Steph:This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us.
